Ismaili.NET - Heritage F.I.E.L.D.Defenses Glorifying the Aga Khan filed in federal Court - 2010-04-29
In a surprisingly rapid twist of events, both Mr Tajdin and Mr Jiwa have filed their respective statements of Defense this 29th of April 2010. They affirm to being devoted followers who will unconditionally abide by the wishes of the Aga Khan, whom they glorify in their defense.
Mr Tajdin declares that:
He has not been served yet but the ethics imposed upon him by his faith demands that he should not keep in ignorance the public by being silent on the issue and should clarify all of the facts, pertaining to this lawsuit, of which he is aware.
He reaffirms his allegiance to the Aga Khan, is willing to submit to any of his wishes, and is ready to surrender himself and all his possessions to the Imam.
He has been printing Farman books since 1992 with approval and instructions from the Imam received on August 15, 1992 in Montreal.
He has not received any communication from the Imam from 1992 to 2009 instructing him to stop publication.
He cannot stop publication without instruction from the Imam as this would be a breach of his oath of allegiance to the Imam.
All Farman publications were financial deficit projects done as a volunteer service and large numbers of books were distributed free of charge.
Farman sharing is a historic Ismaili tradition which still continues today.
The current Ismaili Constitution does not restrict the right to publish Farmans
Mr Tajdin concludes that:
He has no choice but to await further direct instructions from the Imam.
He reaffirms his allegiance to the Aga Khan, is willing to submit to any of His wishes, and is ready to surrender himself and all his possessions to the Imam.
Mr Jiwa states that:
"This action does not appear to have been authorized personally by the Aga Khan .."
"In distributing Farman books obtained from Tajdin to other Ismailis, he has not violated either the Ismaili Constitution or any Farmans"
He has not violated the copyright act as "Tajdin was given express authority by the Imam" and regardless of the fact that "the limitations period provided for by the Copyright Act also bars this action as the books containing the Farmans were commenced publication in the year 1992", he will still do whatever the Imam tells him to do.
Mr Jiwa clarifies finances:
He "obtains these books for C$50.00 from Tajdin and sells it for C$50.00, without any profit.
"All monies received by him from the sale of (other) books after 2005 were delivered to the Jamatkhanas"
Mr Jiwa further states that:
"If the Imam edited the Farman before releasing to the Jamats, in effect he is superceding the Farman he made orally previously."
He "unconditionally reconfirms his oath of allegiance to his Imam" and "if the Imam does not desire his Farman books to be distributed to the Jamats (...) this defendant will submit to the instructions of His Imam without reservation whatsoever"
Replies From the Plaintiff are due within 10 days, and Affidavits of Documents are due 30 days later.
[Update from May 6: Ogilvy Renault, the law firm which launched the case has asked for an extension of 15 days to reply to the Defense. They claim delays due to breakdown of email servers, blackberry communication, travel of senior lawyer, time difference with Paris etc...The more delays in this file, the more damage it creates to the reputation of the Ismaili community, the Imam and the defendants. It is to the advantage of all parties that this case be withdrawn from the courts.]
[Update from June 22: Defendants have filed a Motion for summary Judgement to have the case dismissed.]
[Update from September 5:
Online Book that gathers court materials as well as articles that are currently available for the ongoing 2010 Lawsuit:
Copyright Lawsuit 2010: Online Book of All available Materials
News on cross-examinations:
Copyright Lawsuit: CROSS_EXAMINATIONS Table of Contents - 2010-09-04
Latest Development
Copyright Lawsuit: Imam Appears for Discovery and Ends the Case - 2010-10-15
As users are asking to read the letters from Nagib and Alnaz on the court docket, the latest have been attached on the following link:
A. Various Court Filings
Revised Factums have been posted Here:
2010-11-29 Summary Judgment : Plaintiffs Revised Combined Factums of Reply and of Motion
2010-11-29 Summary Judgment: Defendants' Revised Factums of Motion and of Reply
There has been proven fraud in the recent past in the Aga Khan's domain by the Aga Khan's agents:
Aga Khan Lawsuit: Fraud at Aga Khan Studs - 2000-02-22
2011-05-25: A Jamati Member who has never met the Defendants volunteered as his brotherly duty to pay the $30,000 that was demanded in the Plaintiff''s submissions and that was accordingly ordered by the judge.
Read the full details of the $30,000 payment directly to H.H. The Aga Khan.
2011-06-16: The Appeal Memorandum of Fact and Law against the Summary Judgment has been filed in court by the defendants on June 16th, 2011.
Read the Full Appeal Memorandum of Fact and Law
Link to Court Docket Case T-514-10
Link to Court Docket Appeal A-60-11
Link to Court Docket Appeal A-59-11
Link to Court Docket Appeal A-156-13
| Attachment | Size |
|---|---|
| Tajdin Defence Apr 29.10.pdf | 491.02 KB |
| Jiwa AK Defence Apr 29.10.pdf | 543.82 KB |
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Comments
Quote from MSMS and HI
Imam has remained consistent in this point of view:
Reminds me of MSMS "Struggle is the meaning of life, defeat or victory is in the hands of God, but struggle itself is man's duty and should be his joy."
Also HI "Life is made of problems, they occur everyday to just about everyone around the world, and I think that we must simply accept that that is life, and we must live it fully and courageously"
Many momins were restless with the judgement
I am truly amazed at the courage of these two murids. I hope it will bring a conclusion that will reinforce the batuni faith and bring peace to the hearts of many momins. I pray for the truth to prevail. I pray may your work be guided by the spiritual enlightenment endowed by MHI . My deepest prayers are for you two.
Just live every second with the 15th oct moments of blessed unique time of your life and you will be inshaaalh guided to the truth. There is a deeper conscious of me which is saying to me that these two murids are true momins and they have been wronged by the leadership . Federal court of Canada has only given judgement based on limited information and absolutely no relevance to batuni faith. Only Mawla has the knowledge of real truth , no one else Ismailism without batuni component is like empty shells without the fruit. Without essence batuni faith becomes only Sheriati. I am anxiously waiting for the fruit , the essence to prevail.
I can disclose this: The
I can disclose this: The Appeal was made because of something specific Imam told on 15 October. In doing the Appeal we have been guided at each step by Imam's wish and instructions.
It is a sad day!
It is a sad day! for everyone... the cost of lawsuit is slapped on to our Imam...
It is a sad day because
It is a sad day because Imams Guidance is not shared and followed by some, even with respect by you in not even reading the facts and making generalised statements Sadrudin - If Dr Sachedina and M Manji or other leaders had meetings and discussions with these 2 murids after 15 oct or after Judgement the case would have been concluded as Imam had directed ? Imams farmans and directives are crystal clear about internal dialogue and resolving differences internally by talking and as brothers and sisters. Why not in this case?
Those who have filed this
Those who have filed this lawsuit misusing Imam's name had an agenda. The cost of lawsuit is nothing compared to the damages these people have done to the Imam and his Jamat.
In fact the Imam denied all 3 main allegations in the Statement of Claim filed by Gray:
1) He said he knew that Alnaz had nothing to do with the publication of the book.
2) He said he gave instructions to continue publishing the Farmans during the 1992 Mehmani
3) He said he does not edit Farmans, he only annotates them.
He gave instruction to put the issue to rest.
Gray once wrote to the Defendant that the Imam did not wish to meet them. What did the Imam say?The Imam said He will meet Nagib and Alnaz again. He said "we will work together."
Vinasha Kale Viparita Budhi
Vinasha Kale Viparita Budhi - Literally means during the time of our destruction, we go against our intelligence.
@Sadrudin
Ya Ali Madad. Brother Sadrudin, whatever information this excellent "Heritage Site", gives to people, it does not satisfy them, I think the best solution to this is, to go to "other site/sites", and get the information that can satisfy a person. Thank You.
Indeed you are right. And
Indeed you are right. And the sure sign of this is when you see people contradicting the Imam in loud voice without respect for his Status. And when you see people forging his signature without shame. Surely these are signs of the end of times.
are you reinstating forgery charges ainst his staff?
Imam said to put this matter to rest and consent to judgment and later said that it would be nice if allegations of forgery against his staff were withdrawn.
Oct 15 and Forgery
I think you should take all the events of October 15th together, and not just one out of context. All together, Imam's words make perfect sense in the context of a honorable ending. If SS and MM cannot do their part to bring this honorable ending, then they are continuing the matter and keeping the forgery issue alive. See my post of Jan 24, extract:
"By suggesting a consent including a return of undistributed books, He was mercifully making a path of redemption to the Leaders who went overboard. By remembering the Mehmani and accepting that those who have the book can keep them, He was asking for a humble gesture of acceptance by these leaders after which the matter could be put to rest. Once the Truth is accepted, there would be no advantage in pursuing the matter of forgery any further, because Imam is all-forgiving.
By remembering the Mehmani and accepting that those who have the book can keep them, he reinforced the Defendants' Iman. By suggesting a return of undistributed books, He showed them which concessions to make in order to achieve the brotherly goal of working together.
Now, recall His speech that same night. Often situations don't have black and white answers, and in order to reach a common goal, parties must work together past their differences. On October 15th, which party was not willing to make the concession that was asked for?
More generally, if the Leadership has, after so many decades decided that they will work on a Farman compilation, and that they will finally put resources in this endeavor that they are trying to get approved, then it was perhaps time that Hazar Imam consolidates the capacity. This explains the other matters addressed during the meeting. What more just way to proceed?"
To reply to your question on forgery
To reply to your question, I am not reinstating any fraud charges against the secretary who sent me the forged letter. As I have explained, she was not aware that the letter was forged, she was just passing the email.
There are people who are not in the staff though but who are involved so they are not immune. This has already been explained previously.
In the Motion on 7-8 December 2009, Mr Gray asked the Judge if his assistant could make a lengthy presentation specifically on the issue of Forgery. The Imam had already distanced himself from the content of those forged letters and affirmation on 15 October and we can make an "inference" :-) that SS, MM and Gray were stressed and angry about it.
I think by making that presentation on forgery they wanted to protect people involved in the filing of the lawsuit, it was obvious that the presentation had nothing to do with protecting the Imam. Opening Pandora's Box was not such a good idea for Mr Gray. There was a right to reply and I did reply. This will remain eternally in the transcript of the hearing of the December motions.
@Alnaz and Nagib re: appeal
786
All the very best! Mowla badhi mushkil aasaan karè anè jèma Ee raaji hoyy tèm thaay! Ameen.
Hang in there! Ya Aly madad.
Mulakat - meaning
Sadrudin says in vancouverite"So in reality, in Mulakat, Imam bless that murid by placing his hand over the shoulder, if food offering is done then Imam may decide to keep it with him or return to the Murid with the blessings."
Reply by Bloglaw
Your understanding is very limited, not entirely accurate nor complete and you are confusing it with a mehmani during Darbar, and it's meaning and its significance and it's contents. You also seem to be indirectly associating this with the book of Farmans in the mehmani 1992. If so your conclusions will at best also be limited incomplete inaccurate and confusing too. I suggest again that you discuss this with a scholar and also read or listen to Abu Ali,s and write up and waezeens of others on the subjects of mehmani and related rites and ceremonies generally
@ Mulakat, Darshan (by Abu Aly)
There have been some explanations of what Mulakat is, but here is an explanation by none other than Abu Aly.
I just heard a waez of Abu Aly under title of Mawla's Deedar, waez no. 490, made at B. Khayal in Don Mills (no date or year of waez).
Abu Aly explains what is Deedar, Darshan in the first 15 (at 10:24) mins of waez. He says that many see Mawla, and explains when such seeing becomes Deedar (Mulakat) or Darshan.
He says that it is entirely dependent on the state of seer's heart - whether he has love for the Imam, if he has faith, if he knows and believes in Imam's position - if one sees his Mawla with love etc in his heart it is Mulakat or Darshan.
It is an interesting waez and will help understand what Imam means, what he is, viz a viz our Prophet, and explains Quran Ayats (at 17 mins) which says God has hands, eyes, face.... Based on the seer's love, faith, and yakeem (certainty) one can see lot more than just skin, eyes, etc. (at 37 mins).
Very interesting waez for understanding Imam. (I trust the one purporting to be a scholar but vehemently attacks us will
listen to his guru's waez and seek to abide by it, but his guru says in this waez that inner eyes are opened only for those who are destined, or else it is all for nothing.)
Please listen to this waez, very very good for understanding Imams, god, deedar (seeing face alone is not Deedar) explains Imam's face (at 35 mins +) Shukr, shukr.
Do you agree that the
I am not questionings and reasoning of 1992 mehmani inference Nagib took it and went on publishing the firman book. I would have done the same.
Do you agree that the inference which was inferred of 1992 mehmani was overwrite in the meeting of 10/15/2010?
How many counter were there in lawsuit?
I though there were only one count in the lawsuit and that was infringe the IP. And I saw there was cross count from defendants that Imam was not plaintiff.
Please clarify.
Everything is already available online
Here is an online book with all the info from the Lawsuit.
Please read for yourself. There are a lot of matters.
Read the case, the motions,
Read the affidavits for yourself too.
Copyright Lawsuit 2010: Online Book of All available Materials
Enjoy Surfing Your Heritage!
plaintiff v. defendants?
I think this case is Ismaili institution vs. Defendants! Isn't it?
Do you think this case is SS&MM vs. Defendants?
This case has nothing to do
This case has nothing to do with the institution, it is a simple case of a high level person caught doing things he should not have been doing against the Imam and fearing for his reputation, he has tried to discredit those who can inform the community and the Imam of his wrong doings.
Mehmani and Mulakat - meanings
Editor of Vancouverite says "POSTED FOR SOULMATE: B L O G L A W: Please
stop describing the forced meeting between HH and the two as “Mulakat”.
......I am asking you and your cronies on the Heritage website to stop
kidding yourselves. Stop making disrespectful. inappropriate and unjustified
references to “Mulakat” and “Mehmani” with respect to the events that
unfolded on October 15, 2010.
Reply by bloglaw
I responded to Panjebhai’s specific questions regarding Mulakat and Mehmani. Why is that wrong or disrespectful ? I hope he or you will get clarification from ITREB or Mukhi Kamadiá’s. While doing so may be you can also clarify what is the meaning when MSMS said Farmans are Ginans, and we must seek to read them and understand them even and specially when Imam is not physically present with us. Finally do you believe IF Imam did not really wish to attend that meeting and not start with the words May I make a suggestion, Imam could and would have not done so ?
Response to Panjebhai
Regarding Mulalkat – Traditionally this word is used when Imam gives Deedar, and makes Farmans, gives guidance and also receives Mehmani/s (accompanied by general or personal "urgies" for guidance and or advice). Therefore to me a
Mulakat is also a Deedar (and vice versa). The English simple translation of mulakat is of course a “meeting” . Deedar (like Darshan) means simply to see or have sight of. Of course this (Mulakat, Deedar or Darshan ) has more and
different significance and understanding for Ismailis (and for Hindu’s) respectively.
Regarding Mehmani – There is mehmani during Mulakats (general, Jamati and or personal). and there are also a number of mehmani ‘s in JK, to (and through) Mukhi Kamadia’s who are present in a very special capacity and a significant role. In simple english Mehmani means an offering – a gift and acceptance.
I hope a scholar will clarify if I am wrong, or you can clarify with your Mukhi Saheb and or ITREB and let me know.
Analysis of the truth
An octogenarian lady of 85, who is in my neighborhood and who has very good knowledge of our Tariqa was also a good Vaezeen during her young age. I had many conversations with her about our Tariqa matter, for she is well versed with Noorum Mubin, many Farmans of MSMS and of Hazar Imam as well as many Ginans by heart.
Lately, I had some conversations with respect to this case, and she wanted to express her views on the matter to Heritage site. Though she reads English well, according to her she is not as much comfortable to express her all thoughts clearly in English, and hence, I recorded her voice in Gujarati and got it typed by another Ismaili gentleman who has good command over both English and Gujarati and also knows Gujarati typing in Microsoft word. Here are her views in Gujarati.
“મારા ખ્યાલ પ્રમાણે આ કેસ લગભગ આપણા બધા જ ઈસમાઈલીઓ માટે એક કસોટીરૂપ હતો અને છે. મને તો એ આશ્ચર્ય થાય છે કે આટલા બધા ઈસ્માઈલીઓ એમ કેમ સમજી બેઠા છે કે આ કેસ હાઝર ઈમામે કર્યો છે, અને તે પણ શા માટે? એટ્લા માટે કે નજીબે બધા ફરમાનોની એક મોટી બુક છાપી? પ્રથમ તો હું એ માનવા તૈયાર જ નથી કે એ મૌલા બાપા, કે જે હંમેશા બેહદ પ્રેમાળ, હેતાળ અને કૃપાવાન છે અને જેના પ્રેમ થકી આખી ય ઈસમાઈલી આલમ એક જાતની શાંતી અનુભવી રહી છે તે પોતાના જ મુરીદો ઉપર એક એવી જાતનો કેસ કરે કે જેમાં એ એમની પાસેથી નુકસાની અને વળતર પણ માંગે? આ વાત કેમ મનાય? આ છતાં ય ભલે આપણે આ કેસને લગતી વિગતોને અક્કલથી તપાસીએ કેમ કે મૌલાના ઘણા બધા ફરમાનો છે કે આપણે આપણા બધા કાર્યોમાં, ધર્મની બાબતો સહિત, અક્ક્લનો ઉપયોગ કરવો જોઈએ. અને આ રીતે મેં આ બાબતને વિગતથી તપાસી છે જે આ પ્રમાણે છે:
1. છેલ્લા1400 વર્ષથી જોઈએ તો કોઈ ઈમામે કોઈના ઉપર કાઝીની કે નવા જમાનામાં હાલની કોર્ટોમાં કોઈના ય ઉપર એકે ય કેસ કર્યો નથી, તો પછી હવે એક સામાન્ય બાબત માટે પોતાના જ એ મુરીદો ઉપર કેસ કર્યો કે જેઓ એ મૌલાને અણહદ પ્યાર કરે છે!
2. આપણા પ્રથમ પીર અને મહાન પયગમ્બર હ. રસુલની જીંદગીના એક એક નાના મોટા કાર્યો ઉપર નજર નાખીએ તો સમજી શકીશું કે તેઓ એમના ઉપર જુલમ કરનારાઓ ઉપર પણ કેટલા પ્રેમથી વર્તતા હતા અને તેથી જ તો એ જમાનાના અભણ, પછાત અરબોને ઈસ્લામમાં લાવવા સફળ થયા.
એક બુઢ્ઢિ બાઈ કે જે એમના ઉપર નિયમિત કચરો ફેંકતી હતી એની સાથે, તેમજ મક્કાના એ પૈસાદાર અરબો કે જેઓ એમના જાન લેવાના પ્રયાસો કરતા રહ્યા હતા તેમનાથી, તેમજ બીજા બધાઓ સાથે એમનો કેટલો બધો હેતાળ વહેવાર રહ્યો હતો. તો પછી મારો મૌલા તો ફક્ત 50 મો પીર જ નહિ પણ ખુદ ખુદાવંદે આલમીન છે, અને એના હેત અને પ્રેમનો તો પાર જ ન હોય. મને આશ્ચર્ય થાય છે કે આપણે આ પ્રેમ અને હેતનો અનુભવ કેમ કરી શકતા નથી? આપણી સમજમાં, અક્કલમાં અને ઈમાનની આ એક ખૂબ મોટી ખોટ નથી શું?
3. ખિલાફતના પ્રથમ પદ વખતે તેમજ ખિલાફતના ત્રીજા પદ પર નિમણુંક વખતે મૌલા અલી સાથે કેવા કેવા ખુલ્લા અન્યાય કરવામાં આવ્યા છતાંય ઈસ્લામના ભલા ખાતર આ બધા અપમાનોને સહન કરી લઈ ખુબ જ કટોકટીની હાલતમાં ચોથા ખલિફા તરીકે રહેવા કબુલ થયા અને કોઈના ય ઉપર કોઈ જાતનો ક્દી ય બદલો ન લીધો.
4. કોઈ પણ વ્યાજબી કારણ વગર જ સીમરે યઝીદના હુકમથી પોતાના લશ્કરની મદદથી ઈમામ હુસેન અને એમના નિશસ્ત્ર મુરીદોને નિર્દયતાપુર્વક કતલ કર્યા. પરંતુ મારા એ મૌલા ઈમામ ઝયનુલ આબેદીને ઈસ્લામના હિત ખાતર યઝીદ કે સીમરથી ન તો દુશ્મની રાખી કે ન કોઈ જાતનો બદલો લીધો.
5. આપણા 45 ઈમામ ખલિલુલ્લાને મુલ્લા યઝદિ અને એના સાથીઓએ કતલ કર્યા. આ ગુનેહગારોને ઈરાનના બાદશાહ ફત્તેહઅલી કાચારે આપણા 46 મા ઈમામ હસનઅલી શાહ સામે રજુ કર્યા, પરંતુ મારા એ મૌલાએ એમને થોડીક લાકડીઓ મારીને જતા કર્યા.
6. એક વખતે તે વખતના નાયબ વડા પ્રધાન વલ્લભ પટેલના હુકમથી ભારતમાં આપણા 48 મા ઈમામ હ. સુલતાન મોહમ્મદ શાહના કપડાઓની ઝ્ડ્તી લેવામાં આવી હતી. પરંતુ આ અપમાનોને મૌલા ગળી ગયા એટલુ જ નહિ પણ આપણા હાઝર ઈમામ તો ભારતમાં કેટલાંય પ્રોજેક્ટો કરી રહ્યા છે, તેમ જ પુનાનો ખૂબ જ મોંઘો આગાખાન પેલેસ મહાત્મા ગાંધીના માનમાં ભારત સરકારને ભેટ આપી દીધો. અને આ જ મૌલા પોતાના જ મુરીદો પાસે વળતર અને નુકસાની માંગે? અને તે પણ એટલા જ માટે કે એમના જ ફરમાનોને એ લોકો છાપીને બીજા ઈસમાઈલી ભાઈ બહેનોને પહોંચાડતા હતા?
અને હવે આ કેસની વિગતને અક્કલથી તપાસીએ.
1. 1992 થી લઈને હમણાં સુધી ‘ફરમાનોની કેટ્લીય બુકો નજીબે છાપી છે અને આટલા 18 વર્ષોમાં મૌલાએ કોઈ પણ જાતની નોંધ લીધી નહિ, જ્યારે કે એ અકલે કુલ છે. પરંતુ આ પ્રશ્ન ત્યારે જ ઉભો થયો કે ઉભો કરવામાં આવ્યો કે જ્યારે નજીબે ‘ગોલ્ડ્ન બુક’ કે જે ડીસેમ્બર 2009 પુરી થઈ હતી તેને 2010ની જાન્યુઆરીમાં એક લેટર સાથે હાઝર ઈમામને મોકલવામાં આવી, તે લેટર અને બુક તો હાઝર ઈમામને મળી પણ નહિ કેમકે આ બુક તથા લેટર ડોક્ટર સચેદિનાના મારફત જ મળી શકે. આજ બાબતના અનુસંધાનમાં ડોક્ટર સચેદિના અને નજીબ વચ્ચે કેટલોક વાદવિવાદ ઉભો થયો અને એકાએક તરત જ ઉપરા ઉપર બે લેટરો નજીબને મોકલવામાં આવ્યા અને આની સાથે સાથે અમેરિકા અને કેનેડાના જમાતખાનાઓમાં LIF નામથી બંને મુરીદોની બદનામી કરવામાં આવી તેમજ ખૂબ જ ઝડપથી કેનેડાની ફેડરલ કોર્ટમાં કેસ પણ દાખલ કરવામાં આવ્યો.. શું આટલી જ ઝડપથી હાઝર ઈમામ તરફથી કેસ દાખલ કરવા બાબત પરમીશન મળી શકે ખરી?
2. કેસ દાખલ થયા પહેલા કહેવાતા જે બે લેટરો નજીબને મોકલવામાં આવ્યા તે બંને લેટરો પર અલગ અલગ જાતની સહીઓ હતી? શું હાઝર ઈમામે હાથે કરીને, જાણી જોઈને, આમ અલગ અલગ જાતની સહીઓ કરી હતી? કે પછી વાત કાંઈ બીજી જ હતી?
3. કેસ દાખલ થયો તેમાંના શબ્દો કેટલા બધા કડક, કેટલા બધા આકરા અને નકારાત્મક છે તેમજ એની સાથે નુકસાની/વળતરની નિર્દયતાપૂર્વક માંગણી પણ કરવામાં આવી. શું મારો એ મૌલા પોતાના જ મુરીદો ઉપર આવા આકરા પ્રહારો કરે ખરો? જ્યારે કે એ પોતે તો પુરી દુનિયાના બધાય માનવીઓ ઉપર કોઈ પણ જાતના ભેદભાવ વગર એટલી બધી મમતા રાખે છે કે તેઓની ભલાઈ માટે પોતાના કાર્યો અને પ્રોજેક્ટોને પુરી દુનિયાભરમાં ફેલાવી દીધા છે?
4. એક બાજુ હાઝર ઈમામ બંને લેટરોમાં તેમજ કેસ ફાઈલમાં ખુબ જ કડક શબ્દો વાપરે છે અને એટલું જ નહિ પણ નુકસાનીનું વળતર પણ માંગે છે અને બીજી બાજુ પોતનુ ‘એફિડેવિટ’ દાખલ કરવા તૈયાર નહોતા. શું આ બાબતો વીરોધાભાસી નથી ? જયારે કે એફિડેવીટ દાખલ કરવાથી આ કેસનો ફેંસલો શરૂઆતના પહેલા જ મહિનામાં ઝડપથી એમના જ તરફેણમાં આવી શકતો હતો. બીજી બાજુ ‘2000ના સ્ટ્ડ’ કેસ કે જે એમને સીધી રીતે લાગતો વળગતો જ નહોતો તેમાં પોતે જરા ય અચકાયા વગર એફિડેવીટ જમા કરાવી દીધી. આ વિરોધાભાસ શું દર્શાવે છે?
5. Discovery માટે નજીબે ફક્ત પાંચ મિનિટ માંગેલી, કોર્ટે વધુમાં વધુ 15 મિનિટ આપી, પરંતુ હાઝર ઈમામે પુરો અડ્ધો કલાક લીધો. મીસ્ટર ગ્રેએ પોતાના મતલબની પાંચ મિનિટની જ રેકોર્ડિંગ કરાવી, અને આ છતાંય આ રેકોર્ડિંગમાં હાઝર ઈમામનો એકે ય એવો શબ્દ કે એવું વાક્ય ન હતું કે જેમાં હાઝર ઈમામે એમ કહ્યું હોય કે,’ આ કેસ મેં ફાઈલ કર્યો છે’. આમ મિસ્ટર ગ્રેએ ચાલાકી કરી અને એની આ ચાલકીને આપણા બંને ખૂબજ મોટા ગણાતા લીડરોએ સંપુર્ણ સાથ આપ્યો.
6. હાઝર ઈમામે discoveryની બાકીની 25 મિનિટમાં કઈ કઈ બાબતોનું સલાહ સુચન આપ્યું તેની પુરી વિગત નજીબે અને અલ નાઝે Heritage સાઈટ પર આપી, પણ ડો. સચેદિના અને મોહમદ મનજી હજીક સુધી આ બાબત ઉપર સંપુર્ણ ખામોશ છે. ન તો એમણે આ વિગતોને રદીયો આપ્યો કે ન તો પોતાના તરફથી કોઈ નિવેદન આપ્યુ છે. આ બધું શું દર્શાવે છે? શું જમાતને એટલું જાણવાનો પણ હક્ક નથી કે હાઝર ઈમામે આ બાબતમાં શું કહ્યું? જ્યારે કે બીજી બાજુ, અને જ્યારે જરાય જરૂરત ન હતી ત્યારે, એટલે કે કેસ દાખલ કરવા પહેલાં એમણે LIF ના પ્લેટફોર્મથી કેંનેડા અને કેનિયાના જમાતખાનાઓમાં ખુબ જ ઝડપથી બદનામીભર્યું એનાઉન્સમેન્ટ કરાવીને જમાતને જાણ કરવાનું ઉચિત ગણ્યું, અને હવે સંપુર્ણ ખામોશી? શા માટે?
આ બાબત એ જ દર્શાવે છે કે Discoveryની બાકીની 25 મિનિટ માટે નજીબે અને અલ નાઝે જે વિગતો આપી હતી તે બધી પુરેપુરી સાચી હતી.
7. Discovery મીટીંગમાં હાઝર ઈમામે નજીબ પાસે એક જ પ્રસ્તાવ મુક્યો,” નજીબ, મારા સ્ટાફ (staff) પરના આક્ષેપો પાછો ખેંચ,” અને નજીબે એ તરત જ સ્વીકારી લીધું અને સોરી(sorry) પણ કહ્યું. આ બબતથી ગ્રે, ડોક્ટર સચિદિના અને મનજી ઘણા ખુશ થયા. અને સૌથી વધુ તો Vancouveriteના એડીટર તો રાજીના રેડ થઈ ગયા અને છાપી દીધુ કે, “ plaintiff( વાદી) ખુદ હાઝર ઈમામ હતા અને નજીબે, ડોક્ટર અને મોહમદ મનજીપરના આક્ષેપો પાછા ખેંચ્યા છે તથા સોરી પણ કહ્યું છે.”
હવે આપણે આ સ્ટાફ (staff) શબ્દના અર્થમાં ડોકિયું કરીએ. સચેદિના અને મનજી બંને ઓનરરી છે અને લીડર છે. અગર હાઝર ઈમામનો આ બંને તરફનો ઈશારો હોત તો મૌલાએ નજીબને આમ કહ્યું હોત,” નજીબ, મારા આ બંને લીડરો પરનાઆક્ષેપો પાછા ખેંચ તેમજ મારા સ્ટાફ (staff) સામેના આક્ષેપો પણ પાછા ખેંચ.” પણ આવુ તો હાઝર ઈમામે કહ્યું જ નહિ. બીજી બાજુ આપણે લીડરોને લગતા હાઝર ઈમામના આગળના બધા જ ફરમાનો જોઈએ તો જણાશે કે જ્યારે પણ એમણે લીડરો વિશે વાત કરી ત્યારે હંમેશા ‘લીડર’ શબ્દ જ વાપર્યો છે અને કદીય સ્ટાફ (staff) શબ્દ વાપર્યો નથી.
અગર સચેદિના અને મનજીને સ્ટાફ (staff) ગણવા જઈએ તો પછી દુનિયાભરના બધા ફેડરલના પ્રેસિડન્ટો, બધાય ITERBના ચેરમેનો, education અને healthના બધાય પ્રેસિડન્ટો/ચેરમેનો તેમજ બધાય મુખીઓ અને કામડિયાઓ હાઝર ઈમામના સ્ટફમાં ગણાવા જોઈએ. પણ આવુ તો છે જ નહિ. સ્ટાફ (staff) એટલે એગલેમોં પેરીસ ખાતે હાઝર ઈમામના સેક્રેટરીએટ(secretariat) ખાતે કામ કરતા employees અને, નહી કે આ લીડરો..
હાઝર ઈમામે સ્ટાફ (staff) શબ્દ એટલા જ માટે વાપર્યો હતો કે નજીબે કેસ દરમિયાન આ બે લીડરો સિવાય સ્ટાફ (staff) પર પણ સંડોવાયાનો આક્ષેપ કર્યો હતો.
આ શબ્દ મારફત હાઝર ઈમામે નજીબ અને અલ નાઝને ઈશારો કરી દીધો છે કે, “હું આ લીડરોને નિર્દોષ જાહેર નથી કરતો, પરંતુ મારો સ્ટાફ (staff) આમાં જરા ય સંડોવાયેલો નથી.”
. ગ્રે તરફથી ‘consent judgment’ માટેના બંને ડ્રાફ્ટ પણ ઘણું બધું કહી જાય છે. ક્યો ડ્રાફ્ટ હાઝર ઈમામના suggestionsના based પર હતો – પહેલો ડ્રાફ્ટ કે બીજો ડ્રાફ્ટ? બે ડ્રાફ્ટનો શો મતલબ લેવો?
આથી મારી આપણાબધા ઈસમાઈલી ભાઈ બહેનોને વિનંતિ છે કે આ ઉપર પૂરો વિચાર કરીને પછી નિર્ણય લો કે સાચું શું અને ખોટું શું?
@An ordinary Murid
Thank You1 Abhaar...Abhaar...and karodou Dhanyawaad ! My Salute to that Ismaili Aaalim 85 years old Maa "Jo Jeev Seva karata hai Mowla aur uski Kaum ki wohi Jeev dhanya hai, ooska jivan dhanya hai" ....Mowla Rahem Rahemi hai and May he showers his choicest loving blessings on Maa and all of us for Imanji Salamti, brotherhood aur Hamesha Uss Rahem Rahemi Humarein Molwa Ka Haath Hum Sub Par Aaakhri Dum Tak Kayyam Rahein. Ameen
@an Ordinary Murid re: Gujarati post of Feb. 6
786
How to thank you, ordinary Murid, how to thank this insightful Maa, and the gentleman who typed her message!!! Mowla tamaara badhaano bohuj bhalo karè !! Ameen. Ordinary Murid, can you please convey my gratitude to Maa? I only read up to the end of # 1 (no time now, there is Baytul Khayyal Majlis), and it feels wonderful to hear someone else say exactly what I have been thinking and saying too, I feel less alone now. Laakho Shukhar. I am so sorry I don't have the energy of translating her message in English. Maybe Murad will? Again, thanks a million!
Ya Aly Madad.
translation og gujrati
Can anyone here please "translate or Transliterate" the above gujrati comment . Thank you .
@An Ordinary Murid
Ya Ali Madad. Would it be possible to get the Gujerati comment translated into English language please. Thank You.
Translation
Google translator does not have the Gujarati option. They have many more.
@ An ordinary murid regarding Gujarati comment
Excellent summary and very convincing facts.
I fully agree with her insight.
I am myself struggling with the acceptance of the judgement and the recent talika but my heart is also in denial.
\This cannot be by MHI
He is so kind and soft hearted to His murids He cannot be so harsh no ways!
But Talika and judgement are devastating to my own heart and mind.
Only Mawla knows the truth and reason why he is allowing all this to happen.
I wanted a miracle by My Mawla but I guess miracles are obsolete in this Kalyug.
Taliqah?
With regards to the recent "taliqah" and its translation, I have felt very very disturbed about it. The following Farman of Mowlana Sultan Mohamed Shah flashed in my mind: "khuda bhi koi na eb upar pardo dankhe chhe, to tume koi na eb kevi rite khulla paadi shako"
The taliqah we all heard is in direct contradiction with this farman and that is very disturbing. Hazar Imam is all forgiving, most merciful and this taliqah is at odds with these qualities.
In fact, during the mulaqat of October 15, Hazar Imam asked or directed Nagib and Alnaz not to pursue the issue of forgery, did He not? Now that IS the Mowla that I know. He is well aware of the truth but He does not wish for any wrongdoings to be paraded in public. After all, both parties are His children. That is why I just cannot believe this taliqah. It is very disturbing. The verse of Pir maa-baap comes to mind: "Shree satpanthi, tenjo pardo ho je yaar kholshe, te to narge ja se jeev".
I would have expected Mowla to have sent a taliqah to the effect that the case is now over, both parties are in agreement, everything is forgiven and forgotten and the jamat should remain united. That is more or less what one would have expected but this taliqah, goodness, was very disturbing indeed.
In my entire lifetime, every taliqah and sundesh has given me a feeling of untold joy and happiness. This is the first time I have felt very disturbed with a taliqah. My heart says that these words cannot be my Imam's words and I will follow my heart firmly.
Why Appeal - critical questions
@Sadrudin - I do not agree that in an appeal (on merit) Alnaz and Nagib have
less than 1% of a chance to succeed.
The reason to appeal is not about winning the lawsuit. What is more
important is that this case is about (and centers around) all murids not
having access to Imams Farmans and related guidance with Imams annotations
(thoughts/clarifications). This is the foundational basis of our Tariquesh
and Imam's Farmans and guidance.
The following also needs to be considered;
1 We have one case of a Murid world renowned scholar who has published
over 150 books and who was given a mulakat 10 years ago. Imam directed
his books should be published by our institutions then and now headed by Dr
Sachedina. He was present in that mulakat too. Since no books have been
published by our institutions, Dr Sahedina has effectively decided and
or does not wish to publish any of his books. Dr SS has marginalised that
scholar, namely Nasiruddin. 18 books of this scholar are in the IIS
Library. In addition to Imam and Dr SS, there were two more present in
that mulakat 10 years ago.
2 We now have this case of 2 murids where there was a Mehmani 19 years
ago. One Murid had published a number of volumes and had meetings with IIS
to work together in the future. A lawsuit was filed within a 7 day period.
Dr Sachedina said only he and MM were involved even though Imam he said
requested that this should be discussed amongst themselves. One
Murid was never even contacted before the lawsuit was filed. Dr Sachedina on
record has made some unbelievable statements and is refusing to have
any dialogue or discussions with the 2 murids.
3 In the lawsuit Farmans are stated as available in all JK's and in
remote locations. In fact they are not. Dr Sachedina says Imam edits
Farmans because Imam thinks in French, and so Imam's comments about
leaders not sharing guidance with the Jamat was removed. The latest
Talika is saying different ( Translation into other languages in
complex, but not in english) and what the 2 murids say were informed
by Hazar Imam is also different (Imam does not edit but annotates).
If access to Farmans is now available in all JK's to all murids then there
is no need to appeal or for this case. There is no LIF announcement giving
Imam's thoughts and thise of leaders in this case as was promised in the
last announcement.
Therefore going forward; What should Alnaz and Nagib do ? What should SS
and MM do ? What should LIF and other Leaders do ? What should we do ? What
is also in my view equally important is what should Mukhi Kamadia's do
(Based on MSMS Farmans shared by Murad Ali - Thank you Murad)
Alnaz is a competent attorney
This case is about IP infringe, not about institution failure. The above arguments may work if this matter was with the Ismailia Arbitration. One have to analyze the facts on the ground. Also, one have to keep in mind Alnaz is a professional attorney by profession and therefore we must say things responsibly. In USA, if someone launch the appeal and if appeal is found frivolous the appellate court imposed the sanctions on the attorney - here in this particular case Alnaz is an attorney.
So please list facts and argue the case within the meaning of law.
Sir, If you seperate and
Sir, If you separate and divide Ismaili faith it into materialism and spirituality, then you are right that this case is only about copyright. But Ismailism and Islam are inclusive and we do not separate din from dunya ? So this case is not only or solely about copyright..
Sir why do you think there was no arbitration and why were not the local Mukhi's and Kamadia's of the 2 murids (members of their Jamat) not involved in discussions and meetings with the 2 murids before the lawsuit was filed ? Please read posts of Imam's Farmans and guidance on this subject.
I agree Alnaz and Nagib should carefully consider everything.
one cannot question Imam - why Civil and not Ismaili Arbitration
Alnaz and Nagib case is in the Civil court, so matter is separated from spiritual world! and so one should review the case within that meaning.
I start believing our institution must have discussed all options (Ismailia Arbitration or Civil Court) prior to initiate the case with Civil court. At that time they may have concluded that defendants are loose cannon and it would be difficult for them to bring this matter to quick end. Nagib did produce the very high quality book! and he got a group of supporters!
Since on 10/15/2010, Imam did not ask his attorney to dismiss the case in the favor of defendants, it should be enough for everyone to deduce that Imam brought the matter to Civil court.
Based on the following
Based on the following FACTS What would be your conclusion?
Dr Sachedina said he did not discuss with any one, and towards the end of March Imam e Zaman he says asked him to discuss with leaders, and Dr Sachedina then discussed only with MM. Then the case was filed within 5 working days.So therefore also no other institutional discussions or considerations or meetings took place. And Dr Sachedina also said he reported to the LIF only AFTER after the lawsuit was filed.
So please read the affidavits and the cross examination of Dr SS and AB again and carefully and analyse the facts.
Baseless beliefs
The above post proves how many people come to some kind of conclusions, without even bothering to become apprised of facts from original sources.
Stop relying on second or third or fourth hand sources or those sources that are sheer speculation.
The Quran and Ginans are full of warnings not to slander.
Institutions?
You say:
"I start believing our institution must have discussed all options (Ismailia Arbitration or Civil Court) prior to initiate the case with Civil court."
Have you read the cross-examinations? No such discussions happened, Institutions (LIF) were briefed by Sachedina after the lawsuit was already filed.
CROSS-EXAMINATIONS Transcripts for Summary Judgement Motions
Enjoy Surfing Your Heritage!
This is the conclusion of
This is the conclusion of Judge Harrington. But to conclude this would mean you have considered the Imam as an ordinary human being who has reacted as an ordinary human. To understand that Imam has other conclusion for his appearance on October 15th would require someone to have a very strong understanding of what Imam is and what Noor means.
"Imam and His Noor"
Ya Ali Madad Umed. Very well said. "Only those who have a very strong understanding of what Imam is and what Noor Means". An ordinary person will not understand this. Thank You.
Announcement (Talika!)
3rd February was Chandrat and 4th one was Friday, but there was no announcement in JKs of Pakistan so far. I also called my cousin at India and he too said there was no announcement there too. It means the so called Talika was announced only in a couple of countries of the West where only less than 3 percent of the entire Ismaili world population reside. Why such discrimination, would LIF leaders explain this?
The only purpose of the
The only purpose of the "Talika", it seems, was to discredit and humiliate the defendants in the Jamats where they were known. This was clearly one of the events promised by SS to defendants in February 2010 when he threatened one of them to ruin his reputation in the Jamat if he discloses that SS had sent him a forged letter purported to be from the Imam.
What's Next?
Okay, Nagib and Al-naz, we have heard it all. So now what's next? Are you going to continue with your work I.e. Will you now publish another edition of Firmans or are you going to completely stop all that you've been doing until you hear from the Imam and what He has in mind for you? Give us the bottom line now.
These arguments are going to and from and back and forth. But what is the final outcome? Will you be continuing so that we can look out for the next edition or else will you be on hiatus?
We all believe what you say so will you give in, give up or continue? I'm quite curious to know. Please tell us.
The question is wrong. You
The question is wrong. You can not ask Alnaz if he is going to continue publishing. If you read the previous messages and various cross-examination you would already know Alnaz has never published any Farmans. So the question of continue does not arise.
Even according to both Alnaz and Nagib, the Imam told them he knew Alnaz had not published any books of Farmans. Only the Judge which did not understand is saying that Alnaz joined Nagib recently.
Also about future publications, they have already told us that they will be working on the next book publication with Hazar Imam. But I guess we can wait for an answer from them, I doubt it will be different from what they have already been saying in the past few weeks.
Appeal
The following is for those who may have a legal or academic interest. There are arguable grounds for an appeal which has also been indicated by Professor Vaber and will be of interest is used as a precedent in any cases.
If there is an appeal and if the Judge has erred in that the burden of proof is on the plaintiff to prove there was no express or implied consent, then if the case proceeds, a full explanation with supporting evidence will be needed to show what was the precise meaning and what was understood by the parties in that mehmani in 1992 and mehmani generally. The Judge did say he did not have any expert evidence and relied on evidence by Dr SS and AB in reaching his opinion on a balance of probabilities. Therefore there will also need to be a finding by the Judge based on the evidence before him if this case were to proceed to a trial. Evidentially what the plaintiff has claimed will also need to be supported by independent expert evidence. There are no official publications or precedents which can be produced as evidence. Therefore evidence will need to be considered and given by presumably independent expert scholars and or leaders. Legally and secularly an affidavit from the plaintiff will not discharge the burden of proof. This is not taking into account that the plaintiff will need to show that the plaintiff and the institutions were not aware of earlier publications and then the question of whether there was consent to the earlier publications. There are also then of course a whole host of related issues.
Nagib and Alnaz will be contemplating whether to appeal which I assume will be based primarily on what Imam directed on 15th October 2010. I also hope that there is ongoing dialogue and discussions between the Leaders and the 2 murids.
Evidence to Appeal?
If I'm not mistaken, I believe you need hard evidence to appeal right? So far, other than NT/AT's word, there is no evidence of guidance from MHI. And I don't know courts usually accept stories without evidence...
Please clarify bloglaw
You are mistaken. The Appeal
You are mistaken. The Appeal is mainly filed on grounds of error in law.
only issue in question is "burden of proof"
Professor David Vaver, wrote February 4, 2011 at 7:06:
"On the second point, there was no dispute about the Aga Khan’s copyright ownership. The judge said at [6] of his reasons that the defendants “admit his ownership and admit that if it were not for his consent they would be infringing his copyright.” On the first point, the judge decided on the material he had that there was no express or implied consent to publication given by the Aga Khan. I can’t see any legal error in how he went about that task — apart from the burden of proof point, which I don’t think affected the outcome of the case anyway — so the defendants will find it hard to have that finding reversed." http://www.iposgoode.ca/2011/01/who-must-show-consent-in-an-intellectual...
In Appeal you are only allowed to make the judicial notice to the court for the things which was not available at the time of the hearing or you came across new witness example - May be defendants finds recording of 10/15/2010 meetings with HI, that they can introduce and can request for review the case on that ground.
As professor pointed out, only issue in question is "burden of proof". That is the only challenge defendants can make. I have seen in US, appellate court reviews the case in the most in favorable to lower court's findings. So relying on a dream that appellate court would overturn the case which has only 0.01% chances for overturn it would be foolish idea. If Alnaz and Nagib decides to appeal the case on that ground and then they loose the case, it would bring the greatest humiliation to them. So question is for them, is it worth to take that risk? My position would be if I were one of them - I was fortunate to have HI's meeting on 10/15/2010 and I rest things in HIS hand for the insaaf.
You are right copyright of
You are right copyright of Imam was never challenged and was in fact admitted by Alnaz and Nagib. you can appeal only on a matter of law not because there is new evidence. If that was the case 2 more affidavits by ismailies and or scholars (Al Waez/a) on the meaning of Mehmani. You are right one of the many considerations will be if an appeal would succeed, What Imam directed, Is there any discussion and dialogue, What would an appeal achieve Is it in the best interest of the jamat etc etc
recording of 10/15/2010 events
YAM.
It is surprising that Imam talked to defendants but nothing got recorded! Usually court reporter to record transcripts are arranged by the part who is requesting depositions. Can anyone explain me the inner meanings of this event?
transcripts of 15oct 2010
@ Sadrudin
i am wondering too and have been asking questions too.. I have posted a comment with 5 simple questions .I hope they get posted inshallah.. My understanding is that the defendant were granted a discovery by the court . so they should have arranged a qualified court approved reporter and obtained full and complete transcripts of the whole of the court ordered
Allahu alim
The Discovery was agreed on
The Discovery was agreed on 14th October in principle and the date was supposed to be either 15th or 16th October. The defendants accepted to forsake many of their legal rights for the convenience of the Imam. For instance, they accepted that there would not be any demands for affidavit of document of plaintiff prior of Discovery. Defendant agreed that they will not choose the place, date and time and they will also let Gray choose the Court reporter [obviously because the time and place was not known to them]. Defendants agreed to be told last minutes where they will meet the Imam. All this for the convenience of the Imam, not because it was a legal requirement. According to one of the defendant, they were expecting Gray and SS to act ethically which unfortunately did not happen.
What's the purpose to ask again and again the same question for which there are already multiple answers in this blog?
file the complain against Gray
Looks like, the case narrowing down to Gray's unethical behavior, I believe that you would be able to file complaint with Bar!
15 Oct 2010 Meeting and Meaning
Imam wishes us all to seek the meanings of Farmans, Ginans and our Tariquah. In the past murids relied on Mukhi Kamadia Sahebs, missionaries and leaders. Now murids rely on ITREB and Leaders. A significant difference is that in the past Farmans were published regularly.
Assuming the meeting on 15 October 2010 was as Imam expected, then you need to also seek, read and understand what Imam said and what Imam meant. The 2 murids have given their understanding piece meal. We have a recent Talika which we also need to seek to understand by reading and understanding. Without reading, understanding and seeking to understand we can merely speculate and guess. This is avoidable if Information was shared.
Alnaz Jiwa and Nagib Tajdin will have a nade very detailed note of what Imam said. They will have prepared this immediately after the meeting. They have quoted some parts of what Imam said. Unfortunately after 15th October 2010 there were no meetings between the Leaders and the 2 murids to agree Imams wishes and directions. It is not clear if the murids went to their Mukhi Kamadia’s and or ITREB to seek to share and understand so everyone speaks with one voice. So naturally there will be some confusion and uncertainty .
Any murid who is interested to understand should seek from the 2 murids their detailed note of the 30 minutes meeting on 15th October and also a copy of the consent they signed and then also from our Mukhi Kamadia Sahebs and ITREB to understand the meaning and to read and seek to understand the meaning of the Talika announced recently in this matter. This may not be possible because Leaders and Mukhi Kamadias have been directed not to discuss and they will all not be aware bcause this was not shared with all murids everywhere.
I was reading the following Farman by MSMS, which inspired me to share some thoughts - 1899 Dar es Salaam
"InshÁllah always keep my Farmans in your heart. Do not forget them. It must not happen that so long as I am present here physically you read my Farmans and later on you no longer read them; this must not occur. Just as you read the Ginans read my Farmans, the way you seek out the meaning of Ginans, the same way seek out the meaning of my Farmans too. My Farmans themselves are the Ginans."
MSMS said that the responsibility of ensuring we read and understand the meaning of Farmans, Ginans and our tariquah, is 50% on the Parents, and 50% is on Mukhi Kamadias and leaders. The role of Mukhi Kamadia is therefore extremely important and significant
This time, date, place and
This time, date, place and the court typist was arranged by Brian Gray by order of the Court, not by order of the Defendant. In fact Brian Gray called one of his friend. The defendant's rights were not respected. All this mischief has already been discussed.
no recording 15oct 2010
Logically , if defendant dont have a complete transcript of ALL "on" and "Off " record conversation ...then the discovery is flawed isnt it ? Isnt it upto defendants to demand the complete transcript from a court reporter that they should have arranged for their Discovery of Plaintiff ? I am just asking to learn .
?
Discovery transcript
We asked this of the Defendants too.
They replied that The Case management judge changed the rules and let the Plaintiff's counsel arrange the court reporter. (this is on the record).
On the first day, Oct 15, they only wanted to sign a consent according to what the Imam said. When the draft came and it contained clauses contrary to what He had said, they started to think that the transcript will be required.
Mr Gray did not give the contact info of the reporter for a week, and publicly released on Oct 27, a transcript that was never verified by the defendants.
On that day, defendants did ask for the case management judge to review the complete recording or the complete transcript. When they contacted the transcription company, the company replied after weeks to say it is ready for them to come to see... And it contained nothing that was off record. It did not even contain timings of when the reporter, who is a good acquaintance of Mr Gray, went on-record and off-record.
The Case management judge ruled on November 2 that this transcript could not be entered as evidence for the Summary Judgment motion, and that a separate motion would be needed to file any transcript or affidavit about the discovery.
Enjoy Surfing Your Heritage!
discovery transcript 15 oct
Q#0] Well Summary judgement is done ... so yes. you cant enter complete transcript . agreed......Unless there is an appeal or a full trial.
Q#1] The complete transcript including "off record" portion probably exist , but defendants dont have access to it ...am i right ?
Q#2] Everything is ALWAYS recorded in any Discovery normally. "ON RECORD" portion may be admissible in court. but "OFF RECORD " is also recorded and transcribed for completeness..Why not in this case ?
Q#3} Why did Defendants not arrange an independent court reporter for their Discovery that was ordered by court for their benefit?
Q#4] Why didnt defendants arrange to have Imam-e-Zamans Farmans to them and leaders in this mulaquat recorded at all by themselves?
Q#5] I wonder if these guidance / instructions to Defendants and leader were meant to be private and not to be public ?
Any clarifications on this important issue will eliminate misinformation and misjudgement.
Thank you in advance .. Allahu Alim
'
'
Some answers by a Heritage Reporter
Here is what we know, defendants can feel free to chime in:
Q0] It was ordered back on Nov 2 that upcoming Summary Judgment motions cannot include anything about the discovery. See court docket.
Q1] The actual court reporting company has no record of off-record discussions at all.
Q2] It seems Canadian rules allow for off-record portions to never get recorded (or to dissapear after a few weeks in limbo?)
Q3] Discovery was finally ordered by the case management Judge sometime in the evening of Friday Oct 14, after hours, and she put a lot of conditions on the defendants including letting Mr Gray choose the time and place and make all arrangements.
Q4] It is not allowed to have any other recording devices apart from the official court reporter's.. Were they wrong to follow the Law in this case?
Q5] Even if they were private, if the public statements are completely opposite of what the Imam said and completely in line with what Sachedina was trying to get the Imam to say, then we understand the defendants' continued mistrust on who is operating the case.
Enjoy Surfing Your Heritage!
Why stipulation was not done
When certain documents are lost or missed then documents are created by their knowledge and stipulation. I saw defendants did created the document what was discussed in the meeting of 10/15/2010. But why did Alnaz not pursue for stipulation? Alnaz does know the law! If lower court does not agrees, he could have taken the matter to appeal and brought stay on the entire proceedings.
I have learn in this country, when you are pursuing someone you accelerate the time and defendants in the case would do opposite. Here I see defendants rushed!
The defendants paid the huge price for this mistake. I don't think there is any remedies available to them!
Is anybody derives hidden inference - no recording?
I thought all attorneys in the world work for their clients and for their success (Jealously prosecutes). I understand what Alnaz and Nagib talks about plaintiff attorney. Since Alnaz is the attorney, he must be doing same in his real life, isn't it? Then why in the world, both Alnaz and Nagib decided to follow plaintiff attorney even though they complained about deception and fabrication on their parts!
Imam spoke to Alnaz and Nagib like in the dream! I completely believe that meeting did took place. Even Imam excluds this meeting from HIS Talika! Isn't funny! May be Imam makes defendants look foolish! I think this is call trial and tribulation for both Alnaz and Nagib.
Sadrudin
Brother Sadrudin
Do you know for true momins how it feels to be face to face with the Imam? When the Imam gives didar do you feel anything? At that time do you thing of your work or your family?? These two true momins Nagib and Alnaz were engulfed by the light of Allah that the feelings they experienced, they themselves cannot explain. Both Nagib and Alnaz surrendered themselves to the Imam as true momins and not as defendants. Nagib did not even think of 5 questions he wanted to ask and Alnaz forgot he was a lawyer.
I hope Sadrudin bhai you understand what I am trying to say. You never question your Imam. These are basic things that I was taught when I was a child. If you are an Ismaili you should know these basic things and should not be asking such questions to them. I know for sure SS and MM are without any basic knowledge of our faith because if they had, they would not have exposed our Imam and our community at large regarding this case.
@Babu
Ya Ali Madad Brother Babu. You are absolutely right here. When we face Our Beloved Hazar Imam, and especially when there is an eye-contact between the Murid and Him, the questions you have in your mind for Him are vanished and He assures you spiritually that He knows all your questions. Thank You.
Both Babu Bhai and Yasmin Bai
I am sure you both know, one person of groups can see glass is half full and other group of people can see glass is half empty. Both group are right in their positions! HI knows how deep relationship between him and murids. Also, I believe nothing moves in the world without HIS permission and HIS will. Both Alnaz and Nagib can can claim they were observing adab in the presence of HI and so they did not ask questions; whereas other people will say, this meeting was called for HI to answer questions and clarifies whether he is the real plaintiff in the matter of the law. Nothing is wrong in seeking answer or guidance from HI. I seek HI's answer or guidance day and night. Now you seek answer physically or spiritually - in the both cases you have to be humble and not pride. I also do not know why tape recording was not done, when I was asked to deposed, things were recorded along with the court reporter (actually they are not assigned by the court) taking transcripts.
Here is the story of Mahbharat: ... Drona approached Yudhisthira to seek the truth of his son's death. Yudhisthira proclaimed Ashwathama Hatahath, naro va Kunjaro va, implying Ashwathama had died but he was nor sure whether it was a Drona's son or an elephant, The latter part of his proclamation (Naro va Kunjaro va) were drowned out by trumpets sounded in triumph, on Krishna's instruction .... rest of the story you can find: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurukshetra_War (day 15). Here Krishna's instruction is the key.
If Alnaz believes Grey was unethical and violated the Canadian's Bar rules he can report Grey to Bar for further action and investigation.
You both are saying HI is all knowing when he looks in to your eyes otherwise what.... I see Krishna played is game long ago and in current time, HI played that similar game...
@Sadrudin
I would like to add this to my previous comment. Brother Sadrudin there are Murids, who communicate with their Beloved Imam "spiritually", and there are others who wish to communicate with Him "physically". For example a Murid who has strong "faith" towards his/her Beloved Imam, and has a personal question that has been bothering him/her, and attends the Darbar during Our Beloved Hazar Imam's Padhrami, the Murid gets the answer through His Farman. It depends on each an every Murid, and their faith. Thank You.
@Sadrudin
Ya Ali Madad Brother Sadrudin. Thanks for your comments. Nagib and Alnaz firstly, had their strong faith towards Our Beloved Hazar Imam, secondly, they had surrendered to Him, and thirdly, they had left everything in His Hands, they knew whatever He guides them and decides, will be "good" for them. I am sure one would also say why should they worry what other people "say or think", as long as they were content with the meeting, and Our beloved Hazar Imam is always with His Murids spiritually, and He loves them. Thank You.
Questions!!!!
Although Nagib did not ask questions, don't assume that that ended the matter. Nagib asked for guidance and direction, so MHI had a free hand to say ANYTHING he wanted, and he did.
So whether he was asked questions or not is irrelevant. It seems to me that some people think not asking questions is fatal (as the judge said, but he did not have any evidence that mhi had free hand to say anything and that he did say) but why should it matter, because he instead of asking specific questions he was asked for guidance. Is that not sufficient? He spoke for 30 mins without specific wuestions but did not say what the announcement seems to say.
This the war of Mahbharat!
This the war of Mahbharat. In Mahbharat, both aggressor and defendants both were believer of Krishna. In modern days this war is between institution and Alnaz/Nagib. Here is Krishna is HI. Krishna took the side of Pandav and here HI took side of Institution (Imam did not ask to dismiss the lawsuit).
So just don't be bitter about Talika which you are claiming as an announcement, please start seeing between two lines, you will find the answer - the answer I believe, Imam going to fix the institution's shortcoming which you have demonstrated.
So be brave and become uniter then divider!
Oct 15
Now we don't have recording of what he said on Oct 15, but let us analyze the issues.
Assuming for a moment that the announcement is actually a talika, that it is from MHI, then he is confirming that he is behind all this, and that he actually signed all documents despite our saying that he did not sign them.
If it were true, then on Oct 15 he WOULD have told us to cease our activities and that he had signed all documents etc. He would have told us we were wrong.
Would he then not say in his talika that he ALSO told us in person (more powerful statement than writing to us) to stop and we still continued fighting? why is he silent, why would he expect us to obey his talika when we would have refused to obey him personally.
Not mentioning Oct 15, in the announcement betrays the origin of it.
In the end it does not matter to me whether people believe the Talika or not - i KNOW what MHI said to us on Oct 15, recording or not does not void what he told us, and because of that the announcement cannot be from him. SS and MM both opposed the imam on his face on Oct 15, and anyone who can directly oppose the imam on his face, I ask, what else are they capable of doing.
People can say or believe what they want, i KNOW what MHI told us. I do not have to prove anything to anyone.
@Alnaz re: above post of Feb. 3rd (Oct. 15)
786
Indeed, brother Alnaz, indeed! Right on! Particularly your last line!
Hang in there!
Ya Aly madad.
IP Experts say the Judge erred in Aga Khan Copyright Case
Proof of consent - The Judge erred in Aga Khan Copyright Case, says Oxford Professor and IP expert - 2011-01-31
Extract:
"..a plaintiff who wants to show infringement of any intellectual property right must say that (1) the defendant is doing something only I am entitled to do, and (2) I have not given him any consent to do that. The plaintiff cannot get away with just saying (1) the defendant is doing something only I am entitled to do, but (2) I am not telling him whether I gave him consent or not: he has to tell me whether I did or not. That is neither good sense nor good law."
Enjoy Surfing Your Heritage!
IP expert on Copyright Case
Here is the link:
http://www.iposgoode.ca/2011/01/who-must-show-consent-in-an-intellectual...
*
@Heritage re: IP experts' comment above (Feb. 1st)
786
Thanks a million for posting the above, dear Heritage staff!! Shouldn't this statement provide new light to help brother Nagib and brother Alnaz to decide how to react to the recent judgment?
Ya Aly madad.
not all appears to be black and white
But in all fairness, the Professor Vaver also erred in stating that the defendants were not represented. So it's a little difficult assessing good of a grip he has on the case.
http://www.iposgoode.ca/2011/01/who-must-show-consent-in-an-intellectual...
Still hoping for a just and peaceful outcome in all of this...
Is this case about copyright?
I thought defendants agreed that HI's firman and Talika are copyright materials, isn't it?
Wasn't it true, this case defendants argued that they had the implicit authorization from the Imam to go ahead with publishing the firman and Talika book?
Wasn't it true that defendant did not have evidence that shows they had explicit permission to publish firman and Talika book?
Wasn't it true that defendants wanted to establish that said lawsuit was not brought up the HI?
All these questions have
All these questions have already been answered previously. Defendants have always agreed that Imam has copyright and moral rights on his own Farmans, on the Farmans of previous Imam and he has copyright even if the law of the land says otherwise.
What other issue remain that debate is going on?
So if this not the issue of the copyright then what is outstanding issue in the matter?
There are no other real
There are no other real issues. The issue is only the fulfillment of SS to try to ruin the reputation of the defendants.
Sub: Three Kinds of people
There were three kinds of people who attended 15th October Discovery meeting.
The first kind includes Gray and the secretary who recorded the limited conversations. These two persons’ belief was that MHI is just an ordinary human being and in addition to this he is just extra rich philanthropist.
The other kind includes SS and MM. According to them though MHI is an Imam and spiritual leader of our Jamat, he does need professional constant advices and information to reach a correct decision.
And the last kind includes Nagib and Al Naz. For them, He is the Lord of all the worlds and universes. He is all in all and Noor un Ala Noor for them.
So is it any surprise that each kind or group acted or behaved with MHI in the meeting according to its beliefs. The first two kinds were caught in foam, but for the last one there was no form at all. To them, in front of them, there was a vast, infinite ocean of Noor.
Message to Dr. Sachedina and MM.
I failed to understand as to what is wrong with these two top leaders. Filled with animosity, they are continuously employing cunning, vicious tricks to defame the two Murids without any compunction. They are playing with intense fire.
Here is my strong caution to them. Do not invite Zulfiqar or Sudarshan Chakra (whatever you may call them) towards you. Once it is in action, it destroys anything.
Here is an example from a different faith.
‘On request by Shishupal’s mother (who was also the close aunt of Lord Krishna), the Lord vowed to her that the former would forgive 100 sins of Shishupal. And accordingly, when Shishupal started berating Krishna, he forgave him all those 100 sins, but on 101st sin, Krishna killed him with Shudarshan Chakra.
@Zulfiqar Momin
Very well written, "Here is my strong caution to them. Do not invite Zulfiqar or Sudarshan Chakra (whatever you may call them) towards you. Once it is in action, it destroys anything."
Thanks Kindly.
Well said
Brother Zulfiqar, the story of Shishupal is so appropriate here. Everyone should pay heed to it. Well said.
Sister Zeenatara
Small query
Dear Nagib, your points of view are duly noted. I just have small query that needs your input and clarification - Why print, publish and then distribute, even going tothe extent of naming the collection?
would it not have been satisfying for you to have just made photocopies of your collection encased in a folder or file and made available to anyone who was interested?
I have never understood why you carried your collection to such a professional level which then led to copyright issues. There are many people in our jamat who hold impressive collections of ginans, waezes, firmans etc. Whenever these people are approached to share their collections, they photocopy or make copies of cassettes and give them. Would this not have been a better approach?
Please forgive me. I don't intend to offend you in any way because I know your intentions are noble as you have aptly explained in your various responses. But my query is, why not have kept a low key approach?
@Suleman - Why a book printe at a high level of professionalism?
I did circulate photocopies in the old times. I called them "loose papers". Loose papers end up in places where you can not find them, indeed sometimes in hands and places in which you do not wish them to land.
In 1981 I first saw some very old Ismaili Khojki manuscripts. I studied Khojki in the next few years and started collecting them, trying to save them from decay and to save their content. The content was important to me, particularly Farmans of previous Imams in these manuscripts. I realized then that these Farmans were never circulated or preserved as loose papers. These Farman were preserved through Centuries and came up to us in bounded manuscript format. Putting Farmans into a book format instead of photocopies was to preserve the respect for the Farmans. This was the initial root fro the idea of making a book of Farman.
Then there was a practical aspect: In manuscripts there were tables of content but that was not enough, I though an index would be so much more useful. So we ended up having these 10 books of Farmans, nicely bound. The last one has an index of more then 200 pages. I though people will love the concept of index covering 50 years of Farmans in a voluminous book where otherwise it would be a nightmare to find where Imam said what.
Do I regret this? Not at all. I think this was the right thing to do. I had all the Farmans, I certainly did not need to make them available to the Jamat, except for Imam's instructions and my religious obligation. Working on this project was both a happiness and an honour. Future generations will judge, so will history. but for now, leave it to the Imam. People think Nagib did the book. believe me, Nagib did nothing. It takes millions of small miracles to complete such a project.
You give the example of people making copies of waez cassettes for distribution. But look on this web site, you can search waez by author, subject etc... and there are some of them downloaded or listened online at least a thousand times. You have to go with your time and I think the Imam expect from his Jamat a very high level of professionalism in whatever we do. I think he once used the word "one-upmanship."
Nagib
Nagib
Thanks and Thanks again , and believe me your web site has helped thousand of Ismailis like me , Thanks for your professionalism, may our Lord Our Hazar Imam Bless you for your hard and dedicated work towards fellow Ismaili brothers and sister around the world. Ameen.
Thank you
Thank you Momin Nagib. I had never thought about the index which is so very important and so very useful, and a very very tough undertaking.
Thank you for all your efforts.
@Nagib re: above post of Feb. 1st (Why a book printed...)
786
Thanks a million for sharing the above with us, Nagib! And thank you to Suleman too for his question, otherwise we would never have known what led you to this wonderful project! I marvel every time I use the KIZ, and offer so many shukhar to Mowla Bapa for making it possible for me to have it, use it, reflect on the contents, and often share the contents of so many previously never heard or never read farman...
The index is truly out of this world !! Nagib, the sawaab that you are earning is out of this world too ! Bravissimo and Mash'Allah!!! Mowla sukhi raakhè, ameen. Keep up the good work and hang in there. Ya Aly madad.
The judgement
Why was the judgment not given in favor of the defendants? Why did Mawla let this happen to his two dear murids?
This is the Question in many hearts and mind.
If the defendants would have won, The repercussions of a judgment against the leaders would have caused an upheaval and chaos in entire global jamat. No one would trust one word coming from the leaders. The Murids worldwide would challenge everything coming from Aiglemont. This could be a disaster of unimaginable proportion. The community could break in to pieces. The institutions that MHI is working so hard for 50 yrs to establish and strengthen would have collapsed like a house of cards. Could this be a desirable outcome by MHI? Certainly not.
There had to be some casualty in the lawsuit, that was inevitable. Two devoted murids versus institutions. Was it more important to save integrity of jamat structurally relying on vast network of institutions worldwide? What was a priority?
For Idduladha that we celebrate the lord asked Prophet Abraham to sacrifice his beloved son Ismail. A baby lamb had to be sacrificed at the expense of the Prophet’s son Ismail. However, a “life” was sacrificed, no question Lamb was a soul too! Allah did not put a stone instead of the child nor just moved away everything. Alnaz/Nagib are sacrificial lambs. But this is an invaluable sacrifice. It was inevitable.
MHI for the sake of greater good had to let go of two murids(smaller good) in the jahiri realm. The damage otherwise was a revolution in the community. The sacrificed lamb was probably exalted. So will be the two murids Inshallah. Islam believes in Qayamat (Day of final judgment) (which is independent of Canadian courts) This was a secular issue of straightforward copyright infringement. A secular judge who had insufficient evidence and no knowledge of batuni faith gave the judgment based on obvious evidence. Also obviously, it was a favorable thing for Imam so no one randomly keeps printing Farmans in future.
Alnaz and Nagib must seek peace within them selves by relieving the presence of Mawla on Oct 15,2010 seek for the light all the time every moment, and seek solace. There is no point fighting the big shots like SS. There is no winning. Mawla knows their end also. We believe in afterlife and Qayamat Therefore, I would advise them to invoke His mercy by intense supplication and Bandagi. They are hurt in material world but that is not all. The spiritual realm is vast and unimaginable.
If the forgery happened and Imam’s Farman was not followed, the concerned individuals should remain in fear. (MHI confirmed by mentioning Dais were hurt for editing Farmans) Allah’s stick is silent and invisible but sure to strike one day with great impact! Mawla has his way of giving rewards and punishment. He works more in spiritual than worldly manner. This s a fundamental essence of Ismaili faith. Try and read Nusseiri incidence again.
Disaster????
Why disaster if we won or win as time goes on. Consider the following. Was it disastrous for the jamat? Did the jamat get it.
Why did MHI publicly complain about the leaders during GJ Farman in London? By not naming the leader he slighted all leaders, isn't it? Why did he not discipline, fire and or replace the leader or leaders who were the culprits?
What does that sentiment expressed by our Imam mean?
One more strange but very important point: MHI used the words, "I am not sure..."? WHY? The use if these words when commencing to speak against his leaders also conveys a very deep message, but I don't think that our jamats have understood what MHI actually meant.
Since you have given a deep analytical post for our benefit, I suggest you seek to analyze for us what is it that MHI said or meant about the leaders,
I have not read anyone's post analyzing this important issue, but by this comment, MHI gave us very important message, What is the point MHI made?
I particularly urge those who condemn us concerning the Farmsns issue to answer the above questions posed by me.
Another point, is there any link between the point made above and this litigation!
@ Alnaz :In the worldly Realm
MHI in the worldly realm behaves and works like a normal human who requires the help of staff and leaders and institutions to carry out his day to day operations which are very vast. He also requires security agents when he travels, also he slips on the snow and breaks his bone, He undergoes the pain and suffering of divorces etc. He does not use his spiritual authority in the worldly tasks.
He is somewhat dependent on his voluntary and paid staff, and they being humans are bound to make mistakes and behave with him like they would with a normal boss who does not have anything to do with batuni aspect. The persons working very close to MHI somehow lose that batuni faith which we who do not work close to him have. It is not easy to think their boss as the supreme Lord and work normally
So to my mind when he made a remark about the leaders in London farman he only pointed at the human weaknesses of the leaders. But he has to accept some or all of it in daily life since no one is perfect and he obviously needs them too.
As long as they are by and large keeping the functionality of the jamat going he is accepting them and does not keep firing anyone. Also from the outcome of the lawsuit I have been forced to believe that MHI perhaps has to delegate a lot of jamati works to the leaders where they are given authority to act in many situations independently so if they mess up sometimes He still has to back them up as long as a greater good was not disturbed.
In this lawsuit it was two murids who had to be made unhappy versus break of trust of millions of murids in the leaders and Institutions and MHI wants to strengthen the institutions the break of trust will have opposite effect. He will somehow make it up with his 2 dear murids in the spiritual realm and or worldly realm in coming times. I hope this happens sooner but unfortunately He does not go by our time zone.
To be honest I was very disturbed with the ruling and was questioning my own belief but Bandagi helped me to accept it in a positive manner.
"Discovery"
Ya Ali Madad Nagib and Alnaz. With regard to Discovery, many ismailis who have a negative approach towards it, and you both have given your testimonies many times, it will go to their "deaf ears". Only Allah and Our Beloved Hazar Imam knows everything. This world has become like an ocean, and there are many sharks, and we have to pass through them. People who are "honest", have to go through many obstacles, but it takes a long time when they get through these obstacles, and that person has to have "patience". One thing is for sure that an "honest" person does not have to take "sleeping pills", but can have a very "peaceful" sleep at the end of the day. My point here is, one should not worry of what others say or think about him/her, leave everything in the hands of the "Almighty" Thank You.
@Yasmin
Yasmin Bahen
YAM
Very well said; Indeed Allah almighty knows everything and Insha'allah a Time will come when every one will realize this Truth.