Meeting the Imam: Gray's Alternatives
Gray knows that the Lawsuit will end if the Imam says in person 'Nagib Stop.', yet he tried many times to find alternatives to producing the Imam. None of his alternatives seem to show that he has access to the Imam.
[Note: Extracts of Federal Court Transcripts of Cross-Examinations held August 2010 for Summary Judgement Motions in the Aga Khan Copyright Lawsuit
Sections starting with N. Tajdin #... Means Nagib Tajdin is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Jiwa #... Means Alnaz Jiwa is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Sachedina #... Means Shafik Sachedina is the one answering questions in the next section
Sections starting with Bhaloo #... Means Aziz Bhaloo is the one answering questions in the next section
]
N. Tajdin #134 - #140:
Cross-Examination by Mr Gray.
Q. So, if it is actually from the Aga Khan, you accept that that, in fact, ends the lawsuit. If it really is from the Aga Khan, you no longer have consent to do what you are doing?
A. If the Aga Khan confirmed directly in person that he has written this letter, there is no lawsuit.
Q. Right. You will stop...you confirm, and it is your view that the Aga Khan has the absolute and unfettered right to withdraw any consent he may have given?
A. The Aga Khan can withdraw any consent to anyone at any time.
Q. Right. And even if he had given any consent previously, or anything he may have said previously...
A. Well, from the time he gives an instruction, it has to be followed.
Q. Right.
A. This is the tenet of our faith.
Q. So, if he has withdrawn his consent now, that is the end of the matter?
A. If he tells me, face to face, 'Nagib, stop', that is the end of the matter.
Q. Right. It doesn't matter what happened in 1992 or 1998, or any time?
A. It doesn't matter. If today, he tells me face to face, 'Nagib, stop', I will stop.
Q. But if the letter is genuine, and he has told you in writing to stop, you would also stop?
A. If the letter is genuine, and he tells me, 'This is a letter which I have composed and signed', I will accept.
N. Tajdin #236 - #239:
Cross-Examination by Mr Gray.
Q. So, a matter of this importance, when you are asserting forgery, you are not going to produce for me to review, or for my expert to review, the original of either this letter, Exhibit 5, or the original of Exhibit 3?
A. No. I will not, because your client is...if it is the Aga Khan, he can tell me, 'I have signed it and the matter is closed'. We do not need expertise.
Q. well, you might...
A. You don't need a counter-expert. I am really surprised. Why do you need to see the original of the forged letter? You ask the Aga Khan. He is your client.
Q. I have asked the Aga Khan.
A. So, let him tell me that the letter is not forged, and I will accept it.
Q. He has told you in writing, the letter is not forged.
A. Well, this...
Q. And you don't accept that. You might expect that he might be a little annoyed that you have accused all of his various...
A. Mr. Brian, by saying that this letter is forged, I am protecting the Aga Khan. Come on, he cannot be angry at me. He should be happy at me that at least, I am trying to protect his interests. In this whole file, I am the only one trying to protect his interests. Come on.
N. Tajdin #248.
Cross-Examination by Mr Gray.
Q. Right. So, is it not the case that he can...the Aga Khan, His Highness, can give you instructions in writing? You accept that he has to be able to give instructions in writing, doesn't he not?
A. I would accept his writing if they are not forged.
Q. Right. Okay. But there are 15 million Ismailis?
A. Yes.
Q. He cannot possibly meet all of them, can he?
A. There is only one lawsuit against a Murid of the Imam in 1400 years. Surely, he can meet five minutes that person and say, 'I have signed', but he is not doing it because he has not signed those letters.
Q. But he cannot meet all 15 million Ismailis. He has to operate by sending things by writing?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you agree with that?
A. This kind of...
Q. He generally has to operate by sending information in writing?
A. Yes. And this problem has never occurred before. It is once in a lifetime, once in 1400 years.
N. Tajdin #267:
Cross-Examination by Mr Gray.
Q. I see. So, because the first one was forged, everything else you received from the Aga Khan's office must be forged?
A. No. Everything that says that the first one has been written by the Aga Khan is forged.
N. Tajdin #398 - #404:
Cross-Examination by Mr Gray.
Q. But you agree with me already that if he gives you a clear indication in writing, which you understand or believe to be from the Aga Khan, you will stop doing it?
A. At this point, anything in writing will be questioned.
Q. You will question anything in writing?
A. Yes, because there are so many forgeries in this file that I will not accept a letter.
Q. You won't accept a single thing that comes from the Aga Khan in writing?
A. Not in contradiction to what the instruction he has given.
Q. So, no matter what it says in writing, you won't accept it? No matter how many times he writes to you? No matter how many people...
A. If the Aga Khan writes to me, it has to be proven that he is the one, because up to now, in this file, there is not even one that I can see which is in the Aga Khan's style, his real signature. The content is always questionable, and I understand, you are not familiar with the Aga Khan's way, but I have been studying it for 30 years. The Ismaili knows, this kind of letter are never written by the Aga Khan.
Q. If I got 50 people who swore that they saw the Aga Khan sign the thing telling you to stop, you wouldn't accept that?
A. If the Aga Khan tells me, yes, I will stop.
Q. No, I am telling you, if you got in writing, from 50 different people, that they had seen the Aga Khan sign a document saying that he did not consent, you wouldn't accept that?
A. Mr. Gray, you can bring me a million people. Because the Aga Khan has given the instruction to me, he is the only one who can tell me these instructions are no longer valid. No other
people can tell me that.
Q. No person, but...yes, I understand that, but what I am suggesting to you is, if the Aga Khan tells you in writing not to do it, you won't accept it, even if a million people confirm that
that is the Aga Khan's writing?
A. Even if ten million people, because that is not the point. It is beside the point.
N. Tajdin #415 - #418:
Cross-Examination by Mr Gray.
Q. So, you don't want to examine Mr. Gleason to see if there was somebody who looked like the Aga Khan appeared? You don't want to ask him...
A. There is no need for that. I was not there.
Q. You are not going to show him a photo of the Aga Khan, and say, 'Was the Aga Khan there? Is this the person you saw?'
A. I would not do that, because this would be meaningless. If the Aga Khan has made this lawsuit, let him come and say for one minute, 'Nagib, stop', and I will stop. There is no need for this Gleason and notary, letters, and he would not even need someone to forge his signature if he was behind this.
Q. What if the Aga Khan doesn't want to see you, because you have asserted forgery? Has that ever occurred to you that he might not want to see someone who is asserting forgery against all of his employees, and against his secretariat, and against the secretariat of Prince Amyn? Has that not occurred to you that he might not want to see you for that reason?
A. Mr. Gray, I think he would be very happy to see me, because I am trying to protect his interests, not mine. And there is no accusation against the Aga Khan. I have never insulted him.
Q. And what about the precedent of giving an interview or an audience with somebody who is asserting criminal activities on behalf of his own staff? What about that precedent? Do you think that is a good precedent for him?
A. Well, I would not comment to you. You know, in North America, there are enough cases of corporation where people on the top have been betraying the shareholders, so let's not go into this, please.
N. Tajdin #450 - #451:
Cross-Examination by Mr Gray.
Q. ...and that somehow, now, having received the book, and the lawsuit having occurred, and the announcement by the International Leaders Forum having occurred twice, and two letters having been sent to you purportedly from the Aga Khan, and purporting to have been forged, and you have now asserted widely that they are forged, it has been widely circulated, and you are telling me that the Aga Khan, His Highness, would not step forward to stop this, if, in fact, he had not authorized it?
A. I would tell you exactly the same thing, if he was behind this case. For sure, he would step in to stop this case. He would tell me, 'Nagib, stop. I don't want you to print, and I will say there is no need for a lawsuit'.
Q. So...
A. I will stop...
N. Tajdin #470 - #476:
Cross-Examination by Mr Gray.
Q. So, you have put this settlement offer on the record in your other motion, haven't you?
A. Mr. Gray, a follower doesn't do settlement with his Imam.
Q. Right.
A. It can't happen.
Q. So, when I offered to have you have a meeting with the Imam after you agreed to settle the matter, the case?
A. You wanted me to sign some
Q. Right.
A. ...which were against my faith.
Q. That is why the meeting didn't take place, because you didn't agree to that, right?
A. That is your point of view.
Q. Right?
A. I don't believe in that.
Q. Yes, you don't believe, because you think I don't represent the Aga Khan?
A. I don't believe that the Imam will refuse a two-minute meeting which can avoid to him a lawsuit.
Jiwa #125:
Cross-Examination by Mr Gray.
Q. But if we got another affidavit from another person that had seen the Aga Khan, would that convince you?
A. Listen, you can do what you want to do. I won't tell you how to conduct your litigation, sir. You don't tell me how to conduct my defence or what evidence I put in or who to cross-examine. I have told you my position. You have given your evidence as you have.
Jiwa #129 - 132:
Cross-Examination by Mr Gray.
Q. And you questioned Mr. Gleason. He has given evidence, hasn't he?
A. Mr. Gray, I have been a keen follower of His Highness Prince Karim Aga Khan and...not only him, Sultan Mohammed Shah right back to...right to the prophets. I have read a lot of history. And for me to make judgments...I mean, if you tell me that, you know, if another affidavit comes in, for me to make judgment, I know my Imam how he works, how he operates. Right now, to me, all of this stuff seems odd. They are inconsistent with the constitution. They are inconsistent with the Farmans that he has made. They are inconsistent with our oral tradition of 1,400 years. So I have a hard time believing and accepting.
Q. I understand you have a hard time believing. I think we understand that.
A. Yes.
Q. But, nevertheless, you would accept...you understand that affidavits are often accepted by lawyers everywhere all over the world?
A. And I think you are aware that false affidavits are being filed here and there. It does happen.
Q. I..
A. Excuse me. Courts also routinely get defrauded by people.
Q. And you are suggesting that is what I am doing.
A. No, I am not suggesting. I am saying I am not satisfied.
Jiwa #138:
Cross-Examination by Mr Jiwa.
Q. Can you give me some indication of a motivation why Mr. Gleason would lie?
A. Lawyers get duped by clients every now and then. I think you can look at cases. You can look up reports. If you just look up the Law Society's fraud website, you will be able to see in Ontario about 30, 40 lawyers have been defrauded, essentially based on false ID. Law Society has changed its rules for even doing real estate transactions based on fraud that has been perpetrated. I don't believe that those lawyers are committing fraud. They are victims of fraud.
Jiwa #308 - #315:
Cross-Examination by Mr Gray.
Q. There is one more question I wanted to ask you. Is it your position that His Highness has the absolute and unfettered right to withdraw his consent to the publication of these materials at any time?
A. Yes, he does.
Q. And so if he, in fact, has withdrawn his consent now or at any time since the lawsuit started, that is the end of the matter, regardless of what might have happened in 1992?
A. Yes. You know what? If His Highness personally desires to stop everything, it just stops. He is the boss.
Q. Right. Whether he gives that to you generally in writing or whether it is in person...
A. Generally, no, as I said earlier...
Q. You don't want to accept it in writing but...
A. No. I would accept in writing. The problem that I have right now is this issue of whether...for me, I have a grave concern that he has been misled. It has happened in the past. To you it might sound, 'Oh, well, this is...' but it has happened in the past. So, I would...I am hesitant to accept it in writing. Your e-mail said that if you don't accept it, he wants to pursue with the litigation. So, he has repeatedly told us that if we have any concerns, we can discuss with him. He has told us this. He says, 'I am here to guide my Jamats'. He says, 'Ninety percent of my time should be spent for the Jamats', so we are entitled to...he is like our father. He is not a CEO of a corporation. He is like our father and we are entitled to...if I put it another way. We are entitled to beg him to allow his Farmans to be distributed to the Jamats because he wants the Jamats to be guided. So I am entitled to make a plea to him as a Pir. He is our current Pir as well as actually I think it might even be in the constitution that he is the current Pir, so I am entitled to take our pleas to him and, you know, he
is our spiritual advisor. It is just like Jesus is to Christians.
Q. Right, I understand.
A. So at this moment and this state in time, this litigation is completely contradictory to what he has been telling us all along. This is why I appreciate that you are counsel and I appreciate your comments on that, but I have grave concerns. And so as much as you say I have unfettered...I mean, if he tells me to jump out of this window I won't think think about it. And I hope I can maintain that faith; right? So if he tells us and if I am satisfied this is him, I will do it.
Q. And even if it is in writing, if he tells you that it is not to be done, you will do it? Whether in writing or in person; as long as you are satisfied...
A. That it is from him.
Q. Right.
A. Absolutely. There is no question about it.
Q. And that vitiates, if you will, or cancels or annuls any prior consents that may have been given in 1992 or at any other time?
A. Mr. Gray, it would make no difference whether there is consent or not. He says no, the matter is over.