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Defenses Glorifying the Aga Khan filed in federal Court - 2010-04-29

Date: 
Thursday, 2010, April 29
Location: 
Source: 
Heritage News
20100429-court-filings.jpg

In a surprisingly rapid twist of events, both Mr Tajdin and Mr Jiwa have filed their respective statements of Defense this 29th of April 2010. They affirm to being devoted followers who will unconditionally abide by the wishes of the Aga Khan, whom they glorify in their defense.

Mr Tajdin declares that:

He has not been served yet but the ethics imposed upon him by his faith demands that he should not keep in ignorance the public by being silent on the issue and should clarify all of the facts, pertaining to this lawsuit, of which he is aware.

He reaffirms his allegiance to the Aga Khan, is willing to submit to any of his wishes, and is ready to surrender himself and all his possessions to the Imam.

He has been printing Farman books since 1992 with approval and instructions from the Imam received on August 15, 1992 in Montreal.

He has not received any communication from the Imam from 1992 to 2009 instructing him to stop publication.

He cannot stop publication without instruction from the Imam as this would be a breach of his oath of allegiance to the Imam.

All Farman publications were financial deficit projects done as a volunteer service and large numbers of books were distributed free of charge.

Farman sharing is a historic Ismaili tradition which still continues today.

The current Ismaili Constitution does not restrict the right to publish Farmans

Mr Tajdin concludes that:

He has no choice but to await further direct instructions from the Imam.

He reaffirms his allegiance to the Aga Khan, is willing to submit to any of His wishes, and is ready to surrender himself and all his possessions to the Imam.

Mr Jiwa states that:

"This action does not appear to have been authorized personally by the Aga Khan .."

"In distributing Farman books obtained from Tajdin to other Ismailis, he has not violated either the Ismaili Constitution or any Farmans"

He has not violated the copyright act as "Tajdin was given express authority by the Imam" and regardless of the fact that "the limitations period provided for by the Copyright Act also bars this action as the books containing the Farmans were commenced publication in the year 1992", he will still do whatever the Imam tells him to do.

Mr Jiwa clarifies finances:

He "obtains these books for C$50.00 from Tajdin and sells it for C$50.00, without any profit.

"All monies received by him from the sale of (other) books after 2005 were delivered to the Jamatkhanas"

Mr Jiwa further states that:

"If the Imam edited the Farman before releasing to the Jamats, in effect he is superceding the Farman he made orally previously."

He "unconditionally reconfirms his oath of allegiance to his Imam" and "if the Imam does not desire his Farman books to be distributed to the Jamats (...) this defendant will submit to the instructions of His Imam without reservation whatsoever"

Replies From the Plaintiff are due within 10 days, and Affidavits of Documents are due 30 days later.

[Update from May 6: Ogilvy Renault, the law firm which launched the case has asked for an extension of 15 days to reply to the Defense. They claim delays due to breakdown of email servers, blackberry communication, travel of senior lawyer, time difference with Paris etc...The more delays in this file, the more damage it creates to the reputation of the Ismaili community, the Imam and the defendants. It is to the advantage of all parties that this case be withdrawn from the courts.]

[Update from June 22: Defendants have filed a Motion for summary Judgement to have the case dismissed.]

[Update from September 5:
Online Book that gathers court materials as well as articles that are currently available for the ongoing 2010 Lawsuit:

Copyright Lawsuit 2010: Online Book of All available Materials
News on cross-examinations:
Copyright Lawsuit: CROSS_EXAMINATIONS Table of Contents - 2010-09-04
Latest Development
Copyright Lawsuit: Imam Appears for Discovery and Ends the Case - 2010-10-15
As users are asking to read the letters from Nagib and Alnaz on the court docket, the latest have been attached on the following link:
A. Various Court Filings

Revised Factums have been posted Here:
2010-11-29 Summary Judgment : Plaintiffs Revised Combined Factums of Reply and of Motion
2010-11-29 Summary Judgment: Defendants' Revised Factums of Motion and of Reply

There has been proven fraud in the recent past in the Aga Khan's domain by the Aga Khan's agents:
Aga Khan Lawsuit: Fraud at Aga Khan Studs - 2000-02-22

2011-05-25: A Jamati Member who has never met the Defendants volunteered as his brotherly duty to pay the $30,000 that was demanded in the Plaintiff''s submissions and that was accordingly ordered by the judge.
Read the full details of the $30,000 payment directly to H.H. The Aga Khan.

2011-06-16: The Appeal Memorandum of Fact and Law against the Summary Judgment has been filed in court by the defendants on June 16th, 2011.
Read the Full Appeal Memorandum of Fact and Law

Link to Court Docket Case T-514-10
Link to Court Docket Appeal A-60-11
Link to Court Docket Appeal A-59-11
Link to Court Docket Appeal A-156-13

Latest News Comments

AttachmentSize
Tajdin Defence Apr 29.10.pdf491.02 KB
Jiwa AK Defence Apr 29.10.pdf543.82 KB

Comments

A Blessing in disguise

Nizar, I feel the lawsuit happened to also to inform and highlight issues for us all and all Leaders. copyright and infringement legally speaking, is I feel merely a conduit, the vehicle. A blessing in disguise.

The printing of the next volume of the book of farmans can also be seen as the catalyst to inform & remind the Jamat the Leaders. If not for the lawsuit how would we have known ? This lawsuit and reflection by the Leadership which I feel is ongoing. They are all aware and reading comments, ideas, suggestions and feedback.

Imam reminds us not to let our faith become a faith of convenience and the right balance between din and dunya is exteremely important for us in this life and eternity hereafter.

"There is always something good in any human being"

YAM, MR. BLOGLAW! We have to be grateful with our gain and our loss! Sometime people say that whatever happens happens for a reason. There is no fix answer to anything that is happening or not happening but one thing is sure which will happen without any indication which is ‘death.’ When the birth happens the death will eventually follow without any human intervention. Therefore the time between the birth and the death gives us enough opening to learn from our experience what is right and what is wrong. Anything can be a catalyst to prepare ourselves. And a conduit can only allow the smooth sailing, provided one is aware about the intended inner thoughts and direction of one's pursuit! A religion of convenience does not have any significant in one’s life because it is empty. This emptiness is realised with the age because it is suggesting there is imbalance. The imbalance can only be rectified by accepting the equality. I do not think the temporal life is only the solution to our well being! Like you have said “din and dunya” is extremely important for us in this life and the eternity hereafter after. I would like to this opportunity to thank your good self and Librarian Umed for your kind consideration. This reflection and thoughtfulness is needed to communicate. There is always something good in any human being which is always noticed and appreciated. Allah Hafez, Nizar Ali K. Shivji!

People who can keep the book are the real winners

I think the people who are able to retain their copies of KIZ are the real winners. Everything in this world happens for a reason and I think it might be in their 'Naseeb' or 'Destiny' to have these Farmans. The Imam specifically said that they can keep the books. Poor SS and MM cannot do anything about it. Mr Jiwa and Mr Tajdin were the medium through which these Ismailies could get the Farmans. Also the material in the KIZ hasn't been challenged. So I think those people who have got a copy of the KIZ are the 'REAL WINNERS'.

Please quote this firman

quote ......" The Imam specifically said that they can keep the books"......unquote

Brother Iman : Can you please give a reference [date/place/source etc}
to this particular Firman of Imam-e-Zaman , where you assert that He specifically said that ?

Thank You

Allahu Alim .

Imam said whoever has got a

Imam said whoever has got a copy of the Golden Edition Farman book can keep it. He said that in a Board room on the 38th Floor, in Ogilvy Renault offices in my presence and confirmed the matter more then once. You want the date, it was 15 October 2010 Toronto. You want the time, it was between 10:40am and 11:10am

How will you know if I am telling the truth? Easy: He also said He will give us all His Farmans and meet us again and we will work together. So when you see Him giving us all His Farmans with His handwritten annotation and you see Him meeting us again and working with us, you will know what is true and what is false.

Nagib

I know now, and believe

I know now, and believe Nagib ALSO because Hazar Imam spent 30 minutes instead 5 minutes and instead of starting with - may I make a suggestion - Imam I feel would have simply said; I am the plaintiff and I ask you to withdraw ALL allegations and admit to infringement. Nagib would have said Ameen and obeyed. This would have lasted less that 5 minutes. There are other reasons too which I have given in my other posts.

Zak may be now you should also request Dr SS and MM to share with you and the Jamat Imams Farman and directions of 15th oct 2010. If you are told Imam gave different guidance after 15th October, then also ask when who was present, venue etc .Same as you asked on this site. I doubt you will get any response or even an acknowledgment unless you are very connected with the Leaders.

People who can keep the book are the real winners

@ Imam,
The farmans in the KIZ are copyright as per judgement, therefore the KIZ contains stolen works of IMAM. DO YOU STILL WANT TO KEEP THE COPY??

When the Judge of all Judges

When the Judge of all Judges has spoken, who are you to contradict the Imam? Oups I know who you are, visram & Alykhan the guy posting from Aurora/Richmond Hill, the same who has been careless leaving a trace of his threats on the Internet.. definitively not a very wise move in this technological era....

@Visram

Umed, I wish to add this comment to my previous posting. If Hazar Imam allows me to keep "Kalam-e-Imam-e-Zaman", I will keep this Precious Book as "Treasure". Thank You.

@Visram

Ya Ali Madad. Farmans in Kalam-e-Imam-e-Zaman, Farmans handwritten by someone for reciting, or Farmans published by Tariqah Board, as long as none of them have been edited are "Farmans", and one has to respect them. Your last sentence, DO YOU....................???? I think that answer you will get from Hazar Imam, because He allowed copies of "Kalam-e-Imam-e-Zaman" to be kept by all the Ismailis who had them. Thank You.

Respecting Firmans

@ Visram

I agree that ALL Firmans of Imam-e-Zaman must be respected and followed including published , hand written and if I may add orally transmitted, HOWEVER the source and authenticity are crucial. Just like in case of Sahih Hadeeths of the Prophet pbuh. When and where did Hazar Imam say that He "...allowed copies of KIZ to be kept by all Ismailis who had them ..." as you assert above ? Thank you. Allahu Alim .

@Zak

Ya Ali Madad. Zak, I think you have the answer to your question from Nagib Tajdin. Thank You.

@Iman

SS, MM and AB also lost their proposal to HI to ban the Heritage site, a site with much
valuable and spiritual knowledge about our Tariqa. However, I am sure, these leaders and
Vancouverite are not going to keep quite, they will continue to make all efforts to get their
proposal approved from HI.

KKK

Reading the comments of Ismailis on vancouverite.com makes my eyes water and reminds me of the American south and the emergence of the Klu Klux Klan. I can't believe that in this age and time we have such fanatics in our community who know nothing about the principles of forgiveness. It's a real shame and reflects very very poorly on our community, its principles and ultimately our Imam

I think it would be appropriate here to quote MHI's own words delivered at the 50th Anniversary celebration of Nation Media House in Nairobi on March 18, 2010. - "“Let me sound a word of caution. Freedom, in any area of human activity, does not mean the moral license to abuse that freedom.  It would be a sad thing if the people of Africa in the name of freedom, were expected to welcome the worst of media practices, whether they are home-grown or imported,”

The editor of vancouverite should therefore re-examine his stand on freedom of speech.

@Suleman

Ya Ali Madad Suleman. Do these Ismailis realize how much Our Beloved Hazar Imam must be hurting. He has sacrificed His entire Life for us, He loves us more than we love Him, is this what He would expect from His Spiritual Children? It is very sad. Today, wherever you go in the world where Hazar Imam is very well known, and if you tell someone that you are an "Ismaili", they give you so much respect, and it is all because of Our Beloved Hazar Imam. We should make Him happy all the time. Thank You.

It is a shame that they

It is a shame that they don't practice or mean what they say for example we all go into JK and pray for each other and for increasing unity, guidance, togetherness and love in our tashbihat followed by Ameen. What a contradiction to what they then say, the hate mails, provoking and inciting sadly.

On a positive note the lawsuit has provided this forum to share and remind them and us all to reflect, contemplate and refresh our understating and ethics.

@Suleman and Bloglaw

Very well said. Thank you.

Now we have a forum and

Now we have a forum and communication is instant. More of us are seeking and sharing openly with others on all issues with respect. We have excellent other resources here. Also leaders and the Noorani family are more aware, reading, and can find out. we should all feel free and comfortable to seek and share information here anonymously (and in time more openly without fear)

This in itself is a major change and, a change for the better has started. Thanks to Nagib, Alnaz and all those reading (reticent or contributing), Shukhr.

what is the next step

The poor judge did not understand the point at all and I don't blame him, as we said before this case should have never gone public but thanks to the stubborness of our top leader SS it had. Just to show us his power. What a shame. There is a 'bhedd', don't forget that Mowla said to Alnaz and Nagib as He said to Mr Alibhay in 1992 that we'll work together... So I have faith. Alnaz and Nagib, what is the next step now.

possible next step is to seek review

YAM.

Usually in US, defendants can approach same judge within 10 days to re-review his opinion.

Defendants can tell the judge that he has erred since he has not considered:

that 1972 book is subset of golden jubliee edition and so it cannot get the copy right protection.

Anyway, good luck!

The hole in the verdict

YAM.

The court has failed to answer, Is 1992 firman book is subset of the Golden Edition or not?

If defendants have the arguments in this context to subset then this flawed verdict can be overturned on appeal!!!!!! But I don't think defendants should take this route. The best approach would be not to fight on appeal instead submit the judgement to HI via Council and let HI response.

HI can strike this judgment with one stroke of a letter or Talika or making amendments to Ismaili Constitution.

Also, this verdict is written in a way that cannot be used in future.

@The hole in the verdict

submit the judgement to "HI via Council " WOW! Via Council !!!!!!!! and one wish it will reach to HI !!!!!

If Alnaz & Nagib decide not

If Alnaz & Nagib decide not to appeal, they should certainly inform the leadership precisely what Imam directed on 15th October 2010, in a joint letter attaching the 3 related consents. They should also consider sending an appropriate letter to MHI through their national councils.

I appreciate if Alnaz and or Nagib wrote such a letter to MHI it will go via Dr SS (DJI). If they write to MHI then they should also share copies with the leadership, which MHI and most leaders will also appreciate.

Alnaz and Nagib could may be take the view that they have the answer within this judgment, and that they have a personal assurance from MHI to meet them again. May be this judgment can also be seen as an honourable outcome for everyone.

A decision of what is best is at best very difficult and challenging and will require a lot of contemplation and prayers. I will also pray for Alnaz and Nagib

If Alnaz & Nagib decide not

It makes sense, you are 100% right, but if Alnaz and Nagib send a letter to Hazar Imam through the council, it will go straight to Mohamed Manji, who was present to the discovery and denies everything, who is the chamcho of Sachedina, so the letter will be hijacked again. How can it be possible that a single person can be so poweful and is still getting more and more power. The guy controls every access to the Imam. It is like a dictatorship. Everything is under him. He deserves his surname as little god as I heard. We continue to pray for the defendants, for their families. I hope that it will be resolved peacefully because nothing the Imam said in the discovery has been respected by Gray and Sachedina. On the contrary, it seems that the judge did not even read the affidavits of the defendants, he just approved what Sachedina wanted... It is my opinion.

when going through council things are not same

When things pass through council, individual offers their letter under sealed envelope, the contents can be kept confidential.
Usually, officers of Jamat asks if they can open and review the letter and that individual has option to do so or not.

I understand we are not happy with the leadership, it does not give us right to humiliate them. After all these are HI's appointment and we have no authority to question HI.

I know, Imam does receives those letters and he does responses accordingly.

I think defendants are behaving responsibly and with utmost respect even they are hurts.

Since one of the defendants also lives in different jurisdiction of council he can avoid Canadian jurisdiction.

Also, it does not require these correspondences need to submit to council by defendants personally instead they can give to someone and pass it on. If defendants would like to use my service I will be glade to do that.

@Sadrudin

Ya Ali Madad Sadrudin. For many years, there is "mistrust towards our leaders" by many members of the Jamat. I think it is the responsibility of the leaders to resolve many issues in the community, so that the Jamat can start having trust in them. As you have suggested, which is very kind of you in your para. 6, that "these correspondence can also be given to someone and pass it on." Please forgive me Mr Sadrudin, if I am wrong, I think it says in the Constitution, that any correspondence that needs to be sent to Hazar Imam, it has to go through our Council, and the Council will deliver to Him. So why does any member of Jamat has to give that correspondence to someone to get it delivered? As I have said before that many members on this website have made suggestions, and also mentioned that improvements need to be made by the leaders, no-one is attacking these leaders verbally nor humiliating them. I think they should sit down and discuss these issues. Thank You.

when going through council things are not same

Sorry Mr Sadrudin, the point is not to humiliate the leadership, not at all, I don't intend to, on the contrary, the leadership is humiliating the defendants for the moment. I am telling the truth I think, this is the real fact, no letters go directly to the Imam, it can pass through if we can have a devoted leader who can give it directly or if you have the Imam's personal fax number or personal cell number. I have faith that something will come up. Ameen

@Sadrudin @ Rabya - And

@Sadrudin @ Rabya - And letters are not shared with other leaders either. I agree with Rabya also that we are all only sharing and seeking information and knowledge with Leaders and in so doing we are following Imams Farmans and guidance. It is our duty and responsibility to share with and remind in this case Dr SS and the leaders in question, which everyone is doing in this forum and many directly too. Leaders in question do not react or act except through proxies in vancouverite.. How else do you think we can inform all leaders and the Jamat, and be informed amongst ourselves or seek to understand and learn of the truth of and about this lawsuit and the leaders in question?

I respectfully suggest you

I respectfully suggest you double check and verify the information given to you about ALL letters going to Imam e Zaman and about ALL sealed letters opened and considered by the Leaders before any or some are forwarded to Imam e Zaman. Even for letters handed during Darbar and Mehmani. You will find the information given to you is not correct.

FACT - ALL letters to MHI

FACT - ALL letters to MHI are opened, and read before being submitted via Dr SS selectively.

This has been the practice

This has been the practice for over 15 years and one of the reasons why any letters Alnaz or Nagib now were to write to MHI are copied officially also to appropriate Leaders.

Did the Judge say what he meant ?

News Editor Vancouverite :January 12, 2011 Says

" ..Justice Harrington may have missed the point inadvertently in that, the paragraph you quoted consists of an expert opinion by the only expert on Ismailism – the Chief of the Ismaili faith. Got someone better than the Imam as an expert on the Ismaili faith Bloglaw? "

Bloglaw replies

Editor : So you thnk that the Judge has missed the point inadvertanly and therefore the Judge did not say what the Judge meant in that there was no expert evidence regarding the ceremonial gestures (Mehmani) and therefore the judge relied on the non religious civil law interpretation of the evidence. The judge went on to add there was no expert evidence before him regarding Mehmani except that the defendants are saying one thing and Dr SS and AB are saying something else (1.e there is a difference of opinion between them regarding Mehmani.

Therefore I do not think the Judge missed the point inadvertantly and is not saying precisely what the Judge meant to say. Therefore this is a win win and an excellent judgment for everyone.

In your view Editor do let us know if the judge has missed any other points or issues inadvertantly :)

If not addressed effectively

If not addressed effectively and quickly by leaders then this beginning of a potential witch hunt and marginalization of ismailies by ismailies could spread.

A comparable reality is the case of the Ismaili leading scholar, Nasiruddin. Hazar Imam met him with Dr SS and Mr IR and FH 10 years ago. Hazar Imam directed that his books should available to the Jamat, and IIS should work together with him to publish his books.

What is amazing is SS keeps on promising and saying IIS will. In fact some 18 of his books are in the IIS reference library. However 10 years have gone by and his books are not available to the Jamat officially and none have been considered for publication by IIS.

IIS reports to DJI headed by SS and SS is also a governor of IIS. SS knows and controls it all. Yet sadly marginalization of this scholar his family friends students and anyone who assists or associates with him goes on unabated.

The only reason I am making this specific known and easily proveable comparison is that, judging by what this editor has said, who openly represents the views of the leadership, No one should be under ANY illusion whatsoever of what can be expected, and the challenges ahead for Alnaz Jiwa, Nagib Tajdin, their families and friends and anyone who agrees with them.

I sincerely hope and pray I am wrong that any such marginalization by Ismailies of their brothers and sisters against the wishes of Hazar Imam , will take place or will be allowed going forward. Let us all pray for more unity.
Ya Ali Madad

@Zaheera

Ya Ali Madad Zaheera. Thanks for your posting. I have had an experience not exactly the same, but something similar and would like to share with you.

Few years ago, I had sent a letter to Hazar Imam, which was personal, through the Council.

After 4 moths there was Hazar Imam's Padhrami. I had the opportunity to go for the Mehmani with my mum. Before I went on the stage, I had thought that I would ask Hazar Imam about my letter, but when I reached near Him, I thought Mowla you know everything. He blessed both my mum and myself.

A week later, when Hazar Imam had already left, Darkhana JK Mukhianisaheba, who knew me, greeted me with Mubaraki, I greeted her back. She asked me whether Mukhisaheb had talked to me with regard to my address and other details? She stated that when I was done with our Mehmani, she was present there, Hazar Imam had asked Mukhisaheb to get my address and other details from me and present them to Him. I told her that Mukhisaheb had never approached me.

To tell the truth, I was not upset nor did I approach Mukhisaheb later, but "let it go". I was happy that I was blessed by Hazar Imam during the Mehmani.

Eight months later, I went to pick up my mail from the mail box, and it was my birthday that day, I saw an envelope from Aiglemont, I quickly opened it, read it and also noticed that Hazar Imam had inserted the year with His own handwriting. I was in tears and told my mum that this was the Best Gift I ever got on my birthday.

My point here is that on many occasions leaders(who work closely with Hazar Imam) never take His request/guidance, etc. seriously, but He knows everything. Thank you.

@Yasmin

Mubaraki

@Yamin

Thank you very much Yasmin for sharing your experience. It went directly to the heart, miracles happen

@ Zaheera

Very well written, Thanks.

The judge did not have

The judge did not have enough factual evidence. IF the Judge had no doubt whatsoever, he would have said so and he would not have said his decision was based on a balance of probabalities and that he did not have corroborative expert evidence from other than parties in the lawsuit. The Judge therefore says he relied on the actual words spoken during mehmani, and on what Dr SS and AB who the Judge named as other Ismailies who lined up against Messrs Jiwa and Tajdin.(A succinct but sad conclusion and relection on us)

".While I have no doubt that Messrs Tadjin and Jiwa are very knowledgeable in their faith,
leaving aside the Aga Khan himself (on which more will be said) there are other Ismailis
lined up against them, Ismailis who have held prominent positions.
Apart from Mr. Sachedina, the plaintiff relies upon the affidavit of Aziz Bahloo.."

The Judge THEN goes on to say in the next para...

"..As mentioned earlier we are in the realm of civil law, not religion. No expert evidence has been filed as to the significance of ceremonial gestures. Given the ordinary meaning of the words used in the exchange between His Highness the Aga Khan and Mr. Alibhay, I simply cannot find that the Aga Khan gave his consent to Mr. Tadjin’s endeavours."

So Bloglaw I feel is right, and that this should be seen by all of us, as Bloglaw put it " a win win for everyone" Thank you.

Those who believe, believe.

Hazar Imam has said "Those who believe, believe; those who don't, don't"

By reading this Judgment, with the extract of what happened in Mehmani:

- It is obvious that any true ismailli who believes in Mehmani and in Imam will know the Truth and will keep unaltered Farmans like a precious treasure.

- Anyone who does not believe in Imam, will automatically reject the Farmans, and the Farmans will not go in wrong or undeserving hands.

Remember, Historically, Imam's true followers have always been the minority.

Summary Judgment

Let us hope that

1 The resulting legalities and legal formalities can be concluded by agreement, meeting and conciliation, and

2 Going forward many of the issues highlighted, debated, and the widening gap in the ground realities will be addressed by working together top down, and supporting each other.

3 Imam’s directions on 15th October 2010 will be followed and will be a reason for conciliation and dialogue, and not a reason for appeals or confrontation. Even though there may be reasons for appeals.

4 Leaders with the lawyers (subject to Guidance from MHI) will meet to discuss with the defendants, and find a way to conclude this lawsuit conclusively and once and for all.

5 Farmans are and will available in all JK’s as stated in the lawsuit by MHI, and the new Farman book will be published soon, as approved by MHI (according to SS cross examinations). I hope this will be a collective and a collaborative effort and of course in accordance with the directions and guidance from MHI.

6 An appropriate conciliatory and uniting announcements will be made in JK’s (If any announcements are made)

REGARDING THE JUDGMENT;

The Judge gave his findings of fact of whether express or implied consent was given to the defendants.

Consent was the ONLY issue the Judge was dealing with. (I.E Did the defendants have express or implied consent from his Highness). The issue of who is the plaintiff or alleged forgeries were NOT a part of the issues for consideration by the Judge for the summary judgement.

Regarding Consent, the Judge said essentially:

1 He simply could not conclude that the Mehamni on 1992 was a consent. He says there is no expert evidence submitted regarding what is meant by Mehmani by the parties. The burden of proof is on the defendants. The judge goes on to say that If mehmani was a consent then in his view it was consent for that book only. (In this last conclusion the judge may have erred, because if that was consent for that book, then there was also implied consent generally and to continue ) . The judge said “ ….The defendants argue that it is difficult for a non-Ismaili to fully appreciate the relationship between the Imam and a murid. While I have no doubt that Messrs Tadjin and Jiwa are very knowledgeable in their faith…. there are other Ismailis lined up against them, Ismailis who have held prominent positions. Apart from Mr. Sachedina, the plaintiff relies upon the affidavit of Aziz Bahloo ..” Therefore the Judge chose on a balance or arguable probabilities to rely more on the affidavits and the cross examination of Dr SS and AB. The Judge in absence of expert evidence on Mehmani which can only be given by an IIS scholar or an Al Waeez books. The defendants did not submit the book of Farmans or other books in evidence.

2 The Judge could not conclude that the constitution or Farmans and Talikas quoted give’s the defendants the right to publish the book of Farmans in question. He was talking specifically of publishing that book, not sharing of Farmans amongst Ismailies or between Ismailies. This maybe because the claim (MHI) says Farmans are available to all Ismailies in all JK’s (There were no affidavits or evidence that these are not in fact available)

3 By not putting the 5 questions on 15 October 2010, the Judge had to and concluded by inference that the defendants did not ask those 5 questions because they were afraid that the answers will go against them. The Judge quoted a legal precedent too. The defendants did not therefore put their best foot forward. The onus was on them to do so.

I hope and pray everyone will work together going forward as directed by MHI generally and specifically in this case on 15 October 2010.

Ameen

Speak with one voice

Imam wishes we speak with one voice and work together. The judge said in his reasons that Alnaz and Tajdin had a good knowledge of our faith but he had evidence from SS and AB which was not the same regarding Mehmani.

I hope that the Leaders will also address this serious gap of speaking with one voice, which has now also been pointed put by the judge, and MHI on 15th Oct 2010 reminded SS and MM that it is better to speak with one voice.

Discovery was fortunate!

About your #3:

Since the Judge never saw, as any ismaili would, that Karim Alibhay's affidavit showed consent, then the case may have been lost even without the discovery..

So losing the case after this miraculous 30-meeting Meeting with the Imam is quite fortunate, and it cannot be said that the discovery had a negative effect on the final outcome for NT and AJ - it is a gift to them. And they can have a clear conscience that they acted with great respect towards their Imam :)

Having this judgment that details the Mehmani assures future readers who believe in Imam of what the truth is, and also ensures that unbelievers will stay away from Farmans.

The only very sad and worrisome part is that True Farmans will be much harder for future True ismailis to obtain... This can be the only reason for an appeal..

Leaders must share and make

Leaders must share and make all Farmans accessable to all ismailies in all Jk,s. This has been confirmed by Imam and Dr SS in the lawsuit. This is under DJI which is headed and controlled by Dr SS. Will SS do so now,or will this be " work in progress" using his words for the next 10 years.

If anyone requests to read any Farman they should not face an inquisition or excuses etc. If they do and they quote from this lawsuit or inform the leadership, will they feel welcomed and not fear being singled out ?

Knowing the present culture highlighted by this lawsuit, any change will take time regarding

1. sharing of farmans and guidance
2. acess to Farmans with or without Imams annotations
3 publishing of Farmans by Itreb-IIS which Dr SS says is agreed by MHI, and
4 finally also a change in the editing of Farmans for example the london GJ Farman

Whilst you are right to be concerned, I hope and pray that sharing and seeking of knowledge and information including farmans will be institutionally encouraged welcomed and addressed going forward. Ameen

@Bloglaw

Ya Ali Madad Bloglaw. With regard to your para.1, "Leaders must share and make all Farmans accessible to all Ismailis in all JKs." My questions is, does that mean that we can only read them in JK at that time, and memorize them and not take them home? Thank You

having access to Farman only

having access to Farman only in Jk is in complete contradiction to Hazar Imam's own many many Farmans on reading, discussing and even listening to Farman at our leisure.

According to the lawsuit we

According to the lawsuit we know Farmans are. said to NRCvailable in all JK' s but they are not. Imsm has approved printing and distribution of Farmans but this is work in progress days Dr SS. If left to him when ? 10 more years Therefore no reason why Farmans cannot be given to Jamat and to trust the Jamat to take home andxtead or listen. Bit they are not, not even to many leaders down the line.

By the way I see a revised amended reasons for the judgement have been issued. Can you get and upload the amended reasons ? Thank you

Corrections to Judgement mentionned ion Docket.

I see on Docket there are some corrections. I have not received anything yet. I see Gray has received and acknowledged already. maybe they have sent to a wrong email or misspelled my email address. It happened for the Judgment which they sent to a misspelled email address. I have advised them and waiting for it. From the docket it looks like some pages have been corrected?

Re: Corrections to Judgement mentionned ion Docket.

YAM Nagib,
Ironically, I think most of the corrections are related to you. Your name on all or most of the pages listed as changed on the docket has been misspelled as either Najid Tadjin or just Tadjin. I think that is what most of the changes are probably about.

@Umed

Ya Ali Madad Umed. Thank you for your comment. That means that we cannot read Farmans at our leisure. Has anyone questioned Dr.SS for the reason as to why can't the Jamat take copies of the Farmans, or his excuse is that these are Mowla's instructions? Thank you.

Defendants should accept this and move on

Since defendants physically met with Imam on this subject matter. Imam knows the matter clearly and therefore, pursuing further is not in defendants interest.

Judge does not understand Mehamani nor SS nor MM nor their attorneys. If SS and MM were understanding then they would have asked their attorney not to argue on that subject but they let them.

If you read Baitul khyal firman, Imam says clearly about our "vanaj" when you share this information to others they will not understand and they will think we are all insane - and that is what the judge has concluded.

No one will understand our religious business ("vanaj") so there is nothing for defendants to pursue and prove any further. This judgement is really win for the defendants and should accept it!

You can always submit the copy of judgment to HI via Council and then let the matter rest with HI.

Totally Agree

I totally agree with Sadruddin. The matter should be put to rest and let us all try to achieve our spiritual goals.

Pretty Quite?

How come there are no more comments?? Judgement is very strong

maybe it is also very

Maybe it is also very "wrong" :-)

maybe it is also very

according to you, librarian-umed, it seems everthing is wrong ....

There are many holes in the

There are many holes in the verdict. Maybe we'll make a list of inferences, suppositions, assumptions, inventions, imaginations and hearsay. A proper judgment has to be based on laws and facts and a sound analysis of the facts. A Judge should not try to play guessing games.

That would be most helpful

That would be most helpful in this judgment for those interested and going forward . Thank you.

Excellent Judgment

Maybe because many are contemplating including SS, MM, AB, AK, Leaders, Alnaz and Nagib too. Maybe also because there is dialogue behind the scenes. Maybe also the legal formalities and processes are ongoing

The judgment is very clea. The Judge says he did not have expert evidence before him regarding the significance of that Mehmani (and mehmani generally) : Therefore the judge decided on the evidence before him and on a balance of probalilities of the evidence before him whch he admits was insufficient; "....As mentioned earlier we are in the realm of civil law, NOT RELIGION. NO EXPECT EVIDENCE HAS BEEN FILED AS TO the significance of ceremonial gestures (MEHMANI) . GIVEN THE ORDINARY MEANING OF THE WORDS USED in the exchange between His Highness the Aga Khan and Mr. Alibhay, I simply cannot find that the Aga Khan gave his consent to Mr. Tadjin’s endeavours.

Defendants should accept this and move on

@ sadrudin. ... As HH was the plaintiff, he has already got the copy of the judgment through his lawyers.

Issue is Defendants are Satisfied! with the outcome

YAM.
Issue is not the plaintiff is HI! Issue is in physical world HE is informed. If there is slightest doubt defendants that HI in physical world is not informed or aware about it then defendants can unload their doubt by writing to HI through council as mentioned in our constitution and unload their selves and move on!!! and sleep well that they did their the best to accomplish their goals.

As HI all the time says important is not win but one need to see the interest of JAMAT as a whole and everyone come out as winner.

Obviously Imam knows the

Obviously Imam knows the final outcome of the case, including if defendants will or not appeal the latest judgment. Anyone who doubt this has to be out of his mind.

The judgment is based on suppositions, imagination, hearsay, assumptions and inferences, not on facts or on laws. Nor especially on what the Imam wanted and said in October or in 1992.

Excellent point . I agree .

Excellent point . I agree . Move on . allahu alim.

@Bloglaw

Ya Ali Madad. I also do hope and pray everyone will work together going forward as directed by Our Beloved Hazar Imam, as per His discussions on October 15, 2010, with them. Inshallah. Thank You.

We will and should all work

We will and should all work together to assist and ensure going forward. So will the leadership. Yasmin, Imam knows and knows best.

A Win Win for ALL

I hope everyone will see that this ruling is a win win for everyone including most murids for whom Mehmani is foundational and not just a symbolic event

My reason why this is a win win for all is as follows;

If expert evidence had been submitted by any party regardng Mehmani as being secularly explained and clarified in the nature of a covenant and of its santity and significance in the murid and murshid context, then the Judge would have ruled differently. The following sentence is critical in coming to his conclusions and ruling;

".As mentioned earlier we are in the realm of civil law, not religion. No expert evidence has been filed as to the significance of ceremonial gestures. Given the ordinary meaning of the words used in the exchange between His Highness the Aga Khan and Mr. Alibhay, I simply cannot find that the Aga Khan gave his consent to Mr. Tadjin’s endeavours... "

Therefore the santity of Mehmani is preserved and respected by the Judge (even secularly speaking). Since the Judge has therefore given respect to mehmani by explaining the basis of his ruling and conclusions which are summariised in his sentence above, I hope and pray that this lawsuit will end.

There are many widening gaps highlighted and debated which the leaders are aware of and which MHI will address with the support of the Leaders and members of the Jamat. I also have not doubt as do Alnaz and Nagib that MHI will meet them again.

Sanctity of Mehmani versus Imam's Fairness?

If the Sanctity of Mehmani is preserved and if Imam's words have precious meaning for Murids, then you are saying that Hazar Imam did give consent... then how is "Infringement" a Fair result?

Hazar Imam consented and gave an order to an action when he said, with His Mubarak Hand on the KIZ volume 1: "continue what you are doing, succeed in what you are doing..."

A murid who obeyed the Imam's words in Mehmani is now condemned in the eyes of civil Law, and openly maligned in Jamatkhanas... How does that promote love and obedience for Imam? Can this be what Hazar Imam wants?

My impression is that Mr Sachedina just got a secular judge to overrule our Holy Imam. The Future looks bleak.

Yes I am saying MHI gave

Yes I am saying MHI gave consent in that Mehmani and if there was evidence before the judge in the form of expert evidence from ismaili scholars and other ismailies regarding Mehmani in secular terms and in detail then the judge would have given a different ruling.

That does not mean the judgement given is wrong. It is just that evidence was insufficient and the judge made a finding of fact based on the evidence before him.

That does not also mean that Dr SS has succeeded conclusively either and people reading his affidavit and cross examination will know too.

Dr SS has much to answer for in his leadership and the filing and handling of this lawsuit and much more. I think also Dr SS MM and leaders are aware and have realised.

I feel certain Imam knew, knows best and wanted to preserve the sanctity of Mehmani. And So it is, and this is very clear from the explanation given by the Judge.

summary judgement

@ brother bloglow

I say Ameen .and I agree with your comment, observations and hopes # 1 - # 6
My prayers for a peaceful conclusion for all.
As well as shukhar Alhamdullilah for lessons learnt.

Allahu Alim.

Any comment from the two

Any comment from the two defendants after today's judgment?

"Authorization of Farman Book"

Ya Ali Madad. Does the judge know that the Farman Book has been halted? Or, does he think that the defendants are still distributing the Farman Book? The judge's note: The Copyright Act: (28) As aforesaid......."Although Section 13(4) of the Act provides that an assignment or grant must be in writing, "mere permission may be given orally," or even implied by the conduct of the Author." If I am not wrong, on Oct. 15, 2010, Hazar Imam did confirm about the "Mehmani incident". Thank You.

You are right, according to

You are right, according to Alnaz and Nagib, Imam confirmed that he instructed during the Mehmani. But the Judge can not understand the Mehmani. It is a religious concept that does not exist in the Western traditional religions.

Both have confirm to us what happened during the 15 October meeting, The judgment says there was infringement. Hazar Imam said the opposite. The judgment says there was no consent in Mehmani 1992, Hazar Imam said the opposite. The judgment says $30,000, Hazar Imam said no cost.

But the best thing that happened in that meeting was that Hazar Imam Himself proposed to give to Alnaz and Nagib all His annotated Farmans if they wanted them, to meet them again and to work together so they are well ahead of any judgment and any Public Relation problems. Isn't this what count the most?

oct 15th ..what exactly happened.

Can we request Defendants toplease share with us the Transcripts of 15th October in entirety , so we can compare the differences between what Imam-e-Zaman wished /directed them and the Leaders present to resolve and accomplish versus what the Judgement is ? Thank You . Allahu Alim.

See the Discovery News Page

About the full transcript, the court reporter 'opted' not to record the full half hour. Nagib commented that:

"In fact the Court Recorder is supposed to note down who is in the room [she did not], what time the proceedings went off-record etc… she did nothing of this. She was supposed to confirm the transcripts with me before releasing, she released to Gray first, I was not even given her email or contact or name by Gray up to the time Gray released the transcript. There was quite a manipulation of the records, so Prothonotary Tabib ruled in a Case Conference that no evidence from Discovery can be entered by either party except by going in a new full Motion."

Read more about the discovery here:
What actually happened on Oct 15?

Enjoy Surfing Your Heritage!

Full Transcripts of 15 october

1] were "off-record" discussions not recorded at all ? usually the are transcribed but not part of Official Transcript.
2] Although not part of the official "on-record" transcript, can you post the "off-record" portion , so we may see what
Imam-e-Zaman discussed / directed to defendants and leaders , and compare it to final judgement.
In a way , that was Imam-e-Zaman's Firman ... to be shared with Jamats ..
Thank you . Allahu Alim

Transcript manipulation

We also tried to obtain this.

And that's the concern: the court reporter did not follow protocol. Did not note the times of when she went off record, and did not record or transcribe anything when Gray told her to go off-record.

The reporter should be assigned randomly by the company, but Gray called this particular one on her cell phone while she was at an art gallery to hire her.

Whatever happened to the transcript in the week after Oct 15 when Gray refused to give the defendants the contact of the reporter, until a week later when Gray posted the transcript on the court docket is lost forever. The company has no record of it.

Enjoy Surfing Your Heritage!

@Umed

Ya Ali Madad. Your third para. I fully agree with it. Thank You.

Summary Judgment and Reasons for Judgment

The PDF text of the Judgment and Reasons for Judgment are placed on the Online Book for the Aga Khan Copyright Lawsuit:

PDF's of Judment are in the online book, here

Enjoy Surfing Your Heritage!

Full text of Judgment [27

Full text of Judgment [27 pages] will be posted here in few hours.

It will be to each of us to decide if the Judge understood what is the Imam, what is a Mehmani and what the Farmans are.

It will be to each of us to decide if in reality Hazar Imam won or Sachedina won.

Summary Judgements

According to the case log, the judgments have been made on the 3 summary judgment motions. Any word on those?

Interlocutory Injunction

This means, the case going for trial. In meantime, defendants for now cannot distribute Golden Jubilee Edition of firmans (which I thought on Imam's wish they halted it effective Oct 15, 2010).

I am wrong

I read the judgement. Isn't judgment identical to what was concluded on Oct 15th, 2010?

What Gray wanted it, he didn't get it!!!!!!!!!! What a waste of money and creating disturbance in JK

"No Distribution of Farman Book"

Ya Ali Madad Sadrudin. Your first para. Exactly. Your second para. What a waste of money and creating disturbance in the JK. Thank You.

No the judgment is exactly

No the judgment is exactly opposite of what was concluded by Hazar Imam on October 15th, 2010.

The judgment says there was no consent in 1992 Mehmani. If the judgment is accepted, there will be no trial. If it is not accepted, there will be appeal. lets wait to see what happens next.

The interesting question is as follow: If you know the judgment goes against what Hazar Imam said,

1) Would you oppose it with an appeal by saying maybe the Imam wants us to continue fighting for Him?
2) Would you just say, let the Imam take care since it is His battle, let Him fight it for us?

No the judgment is exactly

The end of the battle on copyright will now likely move to an internal hearing according to the Ismaili constitution on various claims of forgery that the defendants levelled against the trusted aides of the Aga Khan and for bringing disrepute and chaos to the community.

source:vancouverite.com

i really would not worry on

i really would not worry on what a tabloid says, it is knows to be one sided and having more emotional comments then rational comments.

defendants only can appeal - no trial

The case has taken the turn that defendants only have the option to appeal the order; defendants cannot get the trial until appellate court determine the lower court made an error or defendants have new evidence that show that certain favorable evidences to defendants were not available at the time of hearing.

New evidence not admissible in Appeal

New evidence can not be presented at the Appeal but if there are questions of Law, they can be brought forward.

So Defendants, if they go to Appeal, will have to show that there were errors in Law in the Judgment. Normally 3 Judges seat on Appeal and their decision can reverse the judgment of the lower Court.

Are Leaders One sided ?

PanjeBhai in Vancouverite says : Bloglaw: You’re absolutely correct when you say “Arguing an issue legally is not looking at it from only one side or one sentence or two. You need to consider all the facts and evidence”. …Should we now take it take that you will:

1. not use arguments based on Nagib’s ever changing stories, including those that are not in the official transcript of Oct 15th. If NT/AJ want others to seriously consider what they claims occurred, get them to produce a sworn affidavit (just like HH did). Remind them of perjury laws and associated criminal implications.
2. immediately desist comments/arguments in public forums, and use the prescribed Institutional channel, to address any/all grievances you have against the leadership, since HH (not His appointees) is the legally recognised plaintiff of record.
3. stop arguing that Alnaz was not contacted prior the lawsuit filing as being material. two points – (a) HH contacted NT prior to filing and those communications to NT were in the context of NT as the Principal, so onus was on NT as the leader of the infringing group to advise all (AJ and the Does). (b) Legal action is against those involved in production, promoting or distribution of HH’s works; AJ has admitted to distribution.

BLOGLAW REPLIED:
1 We have to use all information from all the sides which I do. This is according to Imam's guidance too. If the lawsuit proceeds what both parties have said on or off the record can and will be used in the lawsuit. All Parties are fully aware I think of any perjury or criminal implications.

2 When we have internal channels or platforms which are effective and Leaders welcome seeking and sharing of information, I am sure everyone will use them. What is the point of seeking if you get silence, or lawsuits as in this case, or effectively the same Leaders who are the ones who are biased and still look into your needs or concerns
.
3 Alnaz should have been contacted. There is absolutely no excuse whatsoever why he was not contacted by Dr SS MM and any other Leaders involved before or after the lawsuit. In fact I am surprised both their immediate Families were also not contacted before the lawsuit was filed and the local Leadership or elders were not involved. The onus is totally on the leaders in question. Remember also secularly we are all treated as individuals, and the murshid and murid relationship is also individual first and then collective. The NCAB and ICAB also say they would do the same even when it comes to differences within families, matrimony etc.

Do you and the Leaders in question agree what I am saying if fair, reasonable and also in accordance with Imam's Guidance and our ethics generally.

WHY NO CONCILIATION ?

Many are interested to know how our National and International conciliation and Arbitration Boards work. The UK Council has just issued latest guidelines which I have copy of entitled “making a difference – Resolving disputes together”
This Starts with the Quran 4:58 ;” ..and when you judge between man and man judge with justice..Allah sees and hears all things..”
The guidelines go on to say that “It has been a tradition in our Jamats to resolve disputes amicably through the intervention of elders of the Jamat… Imams have established institutions that took on this role……This approach is in keeping with the principles of disputes resolution in the Holy Quran, in the Sunnah of the Holy Prophet (PBUH), in the teachings of Hazrat Ali. & Imam Jafar Al Sadiq, as well as in the Farmans of the Imams. “
Drawing on the above MHI has established ICAB’s and NCAB’s world wide to resolve disputes amicably. Conciliation is for ALL members of Jamat (whether they are Leaders or not)
The NCAB guidelines add that they help the parties to reach a fair and equitable settlement by playing a proactive role. They will first contact and meet the parties promptly. As soon as the parties agree, the board will proceed to open a file, undertake a full fact finding, help the parties define all the issues and concerns, conciliate with impartiality, help generate options and alternatives which are fair and equitable to both parties.
These guidelines also quote he following Hadiths of Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) and Hazrat Ali (PBUH) “ Be aware of suspicion ….do not search for faults in each other – be servants of Allah ….. No belief is like modesty ….no power is like forbearance and no support is more reliable than consultation..”

SO WHY WERE ANY NCAB OR ICAB NOT APPROACHED AND INVOLVED BY THE LEADERS (DR SS and MM) BEFORE THE LAWSUIT WAS FILED ?

WHY WAS THE ABOVE CONCILIATION PROCESS NOT CONSIDERED AND INITIATED BY DR SACHEDINA AND OR M MANJI AND OR OTHER LEADERS IN QUESTION?

WHAT WENT WRONG ON AND AFTER 15TH OCTOBER 2010. THERE IS A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN WHAT ALNAZ AND NAGIB ARE SAYING WERE THE DIRECTIONS OF MAWLANA HAZAR IMAM ?

WERE ANY NATIONAL (NCAB) OR THE INTERNATIONAL CHAIRPERSON (ICAB) CONSULTED REGARDING THE DIFFERENCES BEFORE OR AFTER THE LAWSUIT WAS FILED ?

WERE ANY LOCAL MUKHI SAHEBS OR ANY ELDERS CONSULTED TO ASSIST AND INTERVENE TO RESOLVE THE DIFFERENCES ?

IN NOT MEETING ALNAZ BEFORE THE LAWSUIT WAS FILED AND NOT MEETING ALNAZ AND NAGIB AFTER 15 OCTOBER 2010, THE LEADERS ARE NOT FOLLOWING THE ABOVE TRADITIONS, DIRECTIONS AND FARMANS OF HAZAR IMAM, HOLY QURAN, SUNNAH AND IMAMS FROM HAZRAT ALI (PEACE BE UPON THEM ALL)

FINALLY ARE THE PRINCIPLES OF CONCILIATION SET OUT BY OUR IMAMS AND OUR INSTITUTIONS BEING FOLLOWED AND OBSERVED BY THE LEADERS IN QUESTION ?

I hope and pray that this lawsuit and the differences will be resolved and the case concluded soon. Ameen

Where is the Wisdom in ?

Editor of Vancouverite says Bloglaw : “…If you accept that there is more wisdom than yours – right at the very top and if you accept the dominant doctrine – then you’d have to accept the choices that are made. If you don’t, then your dispute is with the very top of the leadership triangle. You’re questioning the wisdom of the decision-maker and that is what most people disagree with …”

bloglaw Replies
Editor. You and everyone are right that I am questioning the actions, reactions and decisions of the top leaders, who are Dr SS, MM, AB (and others who maybe closely involved behind the scene) .

Where is the wisdom you refer to of the Leaders in question in not following Imams Farmans Directions or guidance to the letter and the spirit.

I am convinced that Leaders in question particularly Dr SS and MM, are central to the issues and this lawsuit
Imam has blessed us with Farmans, Directions and Guidance. I am also convinced that Leaders in question are not following and also not sharing or allowing them to be shared The case is about serious issues arising from not sharing of Farmans with and between Ismailies. Copyright has never been questioned..
So, this case is about not following Imams farmans in resolving all disputes and differences by dialogue and discussion which is not being followed. I have not read any Farman which has changed Imams earlier Farmans on these matters. If there is I request Dr SS and MM to provide the Jamat and you Editor, with Farmans/Directions and guidance which Imam has made which says his earlier Farmans Guidance or directions should not be followed by Dr SS and MM, including recommending a lawsuit against Alnaz without first having a meeting with him in accordance with Imam’s Farmans and guidance. And not meeting them after 15 October 2010, etc.

I do not believe Imam would have given 30 minuites on 15th Oct to Alnaz and Nagib if they were wrong. I believe Dr SS and MM are not sharing and following Imams Farmans guidance and directions in this case specifically and generally regarding issues highlighted since 6th April 2010..

Imams do not go against Imam’s own Farmans Guidance and directions, unless Imams replace them with other guidance. In this case Imam has not, regarding conciliation, regarding sharing of Farmans and regarding encouraging questions and regarding seeking of information and knowledge, and regarding Farmans being available in all JK’s globally, to name a few.

Therefore the essence of my disagreement , my seeking answers and suggesting solutions is with and from the Leaders in question. I have also looked at the latest guidelines on conciliation, which heritage posted and you have decided not to (see above). I know you and some of the Leaders including SS and MM are reading these comments too. I hope others and the Noorani Family are also reading them from time to time.

Institutions are made of people.

The Institutions can function effectively only and only if the "people" who are the members of that body are honest and sincere in their duty and qualified to do that particular task.
Education is a key to the effective functionality.
Most of the time selected members are appointed by influence and "who knows whom" methodology.
CAB has lost credibility because inedequately qualified and unwise are often appointed, as aresult the "confidentiality" factor is not honored and jamat loses the trust in its members as a result the Institution becomes discredited

So no matter how sound the laid down guidelines and principles are there for councils and CAB if their top leaders do not implement them how can regular jamat trust them?

CAB is like a "name sake" body whose leader once a year stands up in Jk and gives a boring well articulated report without any effect on the jamat
If you ask one simple Q they are lost.
They will give a favorite answer" MHI wants this"
So you shut up!

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